02-23-2008, 12:21 AM
Avete,
To those interested, I recommend you buy the book "The Rise and Fall of Alexandria", it starts with the foundation of the city until its demise by the Muslim Arabs in the 7th century AD.
No, the city was long destroyed and abandoned by that period. However, the city was conquered by the Persians in the 7th century AD, but briefly reconquered by the Romans and finally conquered and destroyed afterward by the invading Muslim Arabs. So, the city's fate was worse than you might suspect.
Yeah, they destroyed both Alexandria AND Carthage, the two greatest cities on the continent, which were never again inhabited afterward. Sounds very much in character to destroy ancient buildings.
Quite right, Sean. Books are lost all the time, as Carlton pointed out as well. But I didn't know only 8% of Medieval literature has come down to us
hock: This does throw some perspective on the question.
Actually, I think you're being too harsh here, Sean. The most documented portion of ALL Roman history that survives in greatest detail is the Late Republic. Mostly because we have Cicero's letters from the period which allow us to read about the politics of the time often on a day to day basis. No period previous or subsequent is so thoroughly preserved.
True, and there's something else no one's mentioned. Alexandria was devastated by a massive tidal wave in the 360s AD (note: I don't say "tsunami" :roll: ) Many books could've been lost in that one event alone !
Your cynicism is unfounded. Fire spreads very easily, just look at the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD - and Rome had a fire service unlike Alexandria ! Besides, we have circumstantial evidence for the extent of the fire that Caesar started. We know that Mark Antony presented Cleopatra the library of Pergamum (the second greatest only after Alexandria's) which may suggest that he was trying to compensate for the lost books burned by fire from Caesar's time.
Gee, that can apply to just about every group. Alexander killed more Greeks than any Persians did, Romans killed more Romans than Hannibal ever did, Muslims killed more Muslims than ...etc.. Your point is moot.
I agree. Burton doesn't have a masculine presence. Two major exceptions are when he played in "Anne of a Thousand Days" and "Taming of the Shrew".
Great point ! Why did it take this long for someone to mention Constantinople ? Everyone always jumps on the Arabs and the Latin monks but Constantinople had its own library and the city never fell to invaders until 1204. There's nothing the Arabs "preserved" that did not already survive in Constantinople.
No (and yes). The Greek originals were preserved in Constantinople and translated into Latin during the Renaissance as Greek scholars and artisans fled from the Ottoman onslaught. Besides, the Arab translations were flawed so it is doubly fortunate that the Greek originals were rescued and translated directly to Latin. There was no need for the Arab middleman. And the Arabs were highly selective in what they deigned to translate - for instance they completely ignored anything to do with Greek political theory.
~Theo
To those interested, I recommend you buy the book "The Rise and Fall of Alexandria", it starts with the foundation of the city until its demise by the Muslim Arabs in the 7th century AD.
Quote:There was quite a bit destroyed during the Ottoman conquests to, I believe!
No, the city was long destroyed and abandoned by that period. However, the city was conquered by the Persians in the 7th century AD, but briefly reconquered by the Romans and finally conquered and destroyed afterward by the invading Muslim Arabs. So, the city's fate was worse than you might suspect.
Quote:3. The arabs of this time period were actually very accepting of knowledge and science. It would be out of character for them to mindlessly destroy all the knowledge within the library.
Yeah, they destroyed both Alexandria AND Carthage, the two greatest cities on the continent, which were never again inhabited afterward. Sounds very much in character to destroy ancient buildings.
Quote:I have it on the word of written culture expert Dr. Erik Kwakkel that about 8% of medieval manuscripts survive
Quite right, Sean. Books are lost all the time, as Carlton pointed out as well. But I didn't know only 8% of Medieval literature has come down to us
hock: This does throw some perspective on the question.Quote:But yeah, there are a lot of things to weep over, like all the times someone decided to make another copy of St. Jerome rather than copy something profane like a centurion's memoirs of a war the copyist had never heard
Actually, I think you're being too harsh here, Sean. The most documented portion of ALL Roman history that survives in greatest detail is the Late Republic. Mostly because we have Cicero's letters from the period which allow us to read about the politics of the time often on a day to day basis. No period previous or subsequent is so thoroughly preserved.
Quote:We should add that several books that we would like to read were already lost in Roman times, e. g. the whole literature of Carthage, which - according to Polybios and Livius - must have been extensive
True, and there's something else no one's mentioned. Alexandria was devastated by a massive tidal wave in the 360s AD (note: I don't say "tsunami" :roll: ) Many books could've been lost in that one event alone !
Quote:Caesar did burn the Egyptian fleet but in a city where its library and the books within are really the heart of the city I would find it very illogical that the library was located close enough to the docks that the library would also be burnt.
Also in my experience most pieces I have read that want to blame Caesar are written by people with religious bias who are more interested in shifting blame away from the Patriarch and Christianity.
Your cynicism is unfounded. Fire spreads very easily, just look at the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD - and Rome had a fire service unlike Alexandria ! Besides, we have circumstantial evidence for the extent of the fire that Caesar started. We know that Mark Antony presented Cleopatra the library of Pergamum (the second greatest only after Alexandria's) which may suggest that he was trying to compensate for the lost books burned by fire from Caesar's time.
Quote:Remember more christians were killed by fellow christians than ever died at the hands of the romans.
Gee, that can apply to just about every group. Alexander killed more Greeks than any Persians did, Romans killed more Romans than Hannibal ever did, Muslims killed more Muslims than ...etc.. Your point is moot.
Quote:I actually liked that movie! Elizabeth Taylor made a great Cleopatra.
... wasn't too keen on Richard Burton though.
I agree. Burton doesn't have a masculine presence. Two major exceptions are when he played in "Anne of a Thousand Days" and "Taming of the Shrew".
Quote:I expect that the figure is for Europe only, and I'm not sure if it includes the Orthodox world or just Latin Christiendom
Great point ! Why did it take this long for someone to mention Constantinople ? Everyone always jumps on the Arabs and the Latin monks but Constantinople had its own library and the city never fell to invaders until 1204. There's nothing the Arabs "preserved" that did not already survive in Constantinople.
Quote:Many were translated from Greek into Arabic, then lost and back-translated from Arabic in the Middle Ages. It's a crapshoot any way you look at it.
No (and yes). The Greek originals were preserved in Constantinople and translated into Latin during the Renaissance as Greek scholars and artisans fled from the Ottoman onslaught. Besides, the Arab translations were flawed so it is doubly fortunate that the Greek originals were rescued and translated directly to Latin. There was no need for the Arab middleman. And the Arabs were highly selective in what they deigned to translate - for instance they completely ignored anything to do with Greek political theory.
~Theo
Jaime
