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Germanic names
#22
Quote:I didn't make any claims to there being a complete change, but I think it is a relatively salient trend.

I don't see how you can even detect a salient or any sort of trend with the evidence skewed the way it is: 98-99% (on reflection I think it must be 99%+) recorded after your proposed trend took place). I don't think one can get beyond that. If you want to look at AS personal names, the Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England project is now (I think) available on line.

I think there are dithematic -ing names but I'm away from the office right now. But more to the point they are a very tricky form of evidence. How different are AS -ing names from mainland European ones in Francia in their formation? Not very, yet you'd have a job arguing for a change in Frankish names c.650.

Second, if these are names of groups of people then they are probably likely to be based around the legendary or familiar hypocoristic ones such as are recorded from the semi-legendary contexts in later sources, rather than formal ones.

Third place names might not be susceptible to literal 'translation' but could be formed via other phonetic processes which means that Latin or Celtic names (like the ones you mention) could mutate or be rationalised as Anglo-Saxon ones. This would only emphasise any tendency to use hypocoristic forms. Take the name 'Cuddy's Crag'. Presumably it originates as 'Cutha's Crag', but everyone knows that Cutha is a hypocoristic for Cuthbert or Cuthwulf or Cuthwine. For phonetic development, take the place-name York, for example. It morphs through various forms which can be translated as meaning something specific in particular languages (as in Yorvik or Eoferwic) but ultimately are just phonetic developments from Eboracum. We know that because we have the evidence. In 99%+ of other English place-names we don't have that evidence. Take a French place-name, Thionville, also known in German as Diedenhofen. It is first recorded in the eighth century as Theodonis Villa (Theodo's villa). In the modern versions the first component remains the same (from the Theodonis element) but with a termination describing the settlement (-ville in French or -hof in German) that is dependent upon the language being used later. Now Theodonis Villa can mean the farm or estate of Theodo or Thiuto or Theudo - n.b. a hypocoristic from Theodebert or something like that - but the closest Latin place-name known to us (from just over the river Moselle at Yutz) is Adiutex or Adiutice and it is *just* possible that the 'Thiud' element is a phonetic development from the DIUT component of that name. Without detailed evidence in the overwhelming majority of cases place-names are a very difficult basis for an argument.

Fourth, hardly any Anglo-Saxon place-names are recorded before 650 and the bases for toponymic chronologies are thus very shaky (sometimes they are nailed to supposedly early Anglo-Saxon archaeology but as archaeologists would now question such simplistic ethnic ascriptions, that cuts that foundation away completely). Indeed some scholars propose sequences that are diamterically opposed to those of others (or even their own earlier attempts).

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Guy
Guy Halsall
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml">http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/hist/staff/halsall.shtml
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Messages In This Thread
Germanic names - by M. Demetrius - 12-02-2007, 01:10 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Robert Vermaat - 12-02-2007, 12:14 PM
Re: Germanic names - by M. Demetrius - 12-02-2007, 01:40 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Tiberius Clodius Corvinus - 04-14-2008, 09:10 PM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 04-15-2008, 09:51 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Tiberius Clodius Corvinus - 04-15-2008, 10:00 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Decius - 04-15-2008, 10:05 PM
Re: Germanic names - by garrelt - 04-16-2008, 11:51 AM
Re: Germanic names - by S SEVERUS - 04-16-2008, 12:40 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 04-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 05-01-2008, 06:36 PM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 05-01-2008, 06:45 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 05-02-2008, 08:44 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 05-02-2008, 09:11 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 05-02-2008, 09:20 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Tiberius Clodius Corvinus - 05-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 05-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 05-02-2008, 08:06 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Chilperic - 05-03-2008, 07:17 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 05-04-2008, 01:16 PM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 05-04-2008, 02:19 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Chilperic - 05-05-2008, 10:28 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 06-28-2008, 06:39 AM
Gwledig - by Alanus - 06-29-2008, 03:49 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 07-21-2008, 09:37 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 07-22-2008, 04:18 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 07-22-2008, 10:40 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 07-25-2008, 04:34 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 07-25-2008, 11:22 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 07-25-2008, 06:46 PM
Re: Germanic names - by D B Campbell - 07-25-2008, 08:47 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 07-26-2008, 06:02 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 08-18-2008, 02:26 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 08-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 08-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-12-2008, 03:42 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-12-2008, 03:13 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-13-2008, 04:09 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-13-2008, 11:06 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-14-2008, 04:41 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-14-2008, 10:48 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-15-2008, 04:54 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-15-2008, 10:36 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Urselius - 09-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-16-2008, 03:43 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 09-16-2008, 05:11 PM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 09-16-2008, 05:19 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-19-2008, 03:25 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 09-19-2008, 09:02 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 09-19-2008, 09:19 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-22-2008, 03:33 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Robert Vermaat - 09-22-2008, 04:44 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-23-2008, 03:26 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-23-2008, 12:18 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Robert Vermaat - 09-23-2008, 07:31 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-24-2008, 06:53 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Robert Vermaat - 09-24-2008, 07:16 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-25-2008, 03:03 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-26-2008, 04:11 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 09-26-2008, 09:46 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-26-2008, 10:47 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 09-26-2008, 11:15 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 09-27-2008, 03:42 AM
Re: Germanic names - by authun - 11-08-2008, 11:15 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Grimhild - 11-24-2008, 08:38 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 12-02-2008, 01:17 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 01-22-2009, 07:18 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Ron Andrea - 01-22-2009, 11:03 AM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 01-22-2009, 04:14 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Robert Vermaat - 01-22-2009, 08:52 PM
Re: Germanic names - by Alanus - 01-22-2009, 09:17 PM

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