Hoplite spacing and formation

[PMBardunias]

Case closed!

I think you best reopen it and start by posting the sculptures you speak of. Most of what people put up as left over right is if anything edge-on- like the Chigi vase image. It is exceedingly difficult to portray right over left and a) show shield blazons, b) not make it look like the men are standing in a queue instead of a battle-line.

If someone argues for left over right and supports opened order, or the side-on stance for othismos, then I have no quarrel with them, I simply see it another way. In fact it may have varied over time with the side stance coming first in a less that perfect othismos.

The squared forward stance, with the right side of your chest covered by another man's shield is not effective in othismos. Any movement by that man forward, or you back, and the edge of his shield is now deep in your solar plexis. What looks nice or is practical to do in reinactment drill is not the same thing as what keeps you alive in the othismos. Your shield rim must be resting on your chest and thighs.

What is needed is a true experiment with all of the proper forces appied.

Perhaps you can post such pictures Paul?

No pics, I was told that in this fellow's experience the shield across the chest allowed for breathing in the heavy crowds of mock battles. From that piece of info I deduced the rest of it. It was years ago and probably on the phalanx, no recollection who he was. He may be on this site.

Also, "shield-walls" with anyting other than an aspis do not conform to the same mechanics. If a shield is flat and there is no belly to make room for your hand and allow the upper and lower rim of the shield to support it (perhaps an angled scutum could provide this to a lesser degree) , you will asphyxiate in the press as your own fist, which may or may not be broken by the force, jams into your abdomen. This is simply the consequence of the forces generated by crowds and thus the logical end result of literal othismos. Men is D will beat men in C at othismos every time because they can neither generate, now withstand the same pushing force. Now if othismos is a figurative butting of shields, then all of this is meaningless.