Spartan hype?

[Paullus Scipio]

I never claimed to have a hypothosis about how they got into their fighting array- only that I don't believe for a myriad of other reasons involving the mechanics of hoplite battle that they fought in 4's and 6's

..a pity wink:
Failing a hypothesis, how about setting out some of your 'myriad reasons', or would that be anticipating your Ancient Warfare article??

You obviously have not been to the Top End or Kimberly recenty- I had a research site in Darwin- though I admit that Prior to my research there, Benny Hill's Digger Blue sketch was my most formative Australian experience. I even have a hat with dangling corks- to go with my Hawaiian shirt, american tourist uniform.

Nope, haven't been up there for years - but if someone said "fair dinkum", they were most likely using an old phrase to set up an ozzie stereotype - a 'leg pull' probably, Australians having a taste for dry, laconic and subtle wit. 'Hat with dangling corks'? 'Hawiian shirt'? Priceless !
You must love a good cliche! oops: )

No, the whole point of a Spartan advance is that they arrived together in good order- this why spartans were famous. If everyone could do this so easily then why make a big deal of spartans who marched slowly in time to flutes

Oh dear ! Going to have to disagree with that too ! I think the point about the Spartans here is that they supposedly cold-bloodedly marched, probably cadenced, into battle to the sound of the flute, while others needed a war paean, and a charge, to work up their courage.

I brought up Koronea because you sad they never charged from 200 yards

No I didn't ! At least not exactly. I said if you charged from that distance, you'd arrive blown and disordered, and doesn't Xenophon's account tend to bear this out ?

By the way, were I Persian I'd take offence at you placing the range of my archers at 50 meters! Thracians could out throw me!

Don't want to digress about missile ranges, (yet another fascinating topic!)Pysics and experiments show that Persian bows had a maximum range of 175-200m. Effective range on the other hand, was less than 100m, and more like 50m - this is why slings, arrows and javelins all had their uses on the battlefield, because their effective range was not too different.

send me an email, I am happy to send you copies of all of these that you have not read

Done !! D

Keep your Macedonian drill out of my Hopites. I mean just what the word says, then fought in othismos with overlapping shields. That they could not run like this in formation tells you why they could not keep formation when they ran. the only limit to how tight they could pack was their shoulders- tighter perhaps since they had one arm raised

Shan't ! As you yourself acknowledge in the "Othismos" thread, phalanx warfare was an evolutionary process, and as such the drill manuals are relevant, as being close to the final developed form of phalanx warfare. Perhaps it began as Hoplites only able to form up in close order, and march forward, but by Xenophon's day it involved sophisticated drill (e.g. Laconian counter-march) - and not just Spartans either (e.g Athenian innovation at Marathon). I'm having trouble following your premise here. First you say they charged at the run, herd instinct takes over and they lose formation, then you say they fought with overlapped shields in synapsismos 'locked shields' - 1 cubit per man fontage, 18 imches, 45 cm , packed tightly and only able to shuffle forward slowly? ? If so, known battlefield frontages would make no sense! I might be able to just about believe this of the Theban column struggling to break through the Spartan line at Coronea, but not as a general rule ! :? shock:

Perhaps the "Ancient Warfare no.3" article will reveal more ! We wait with bated breath!