10-28-2007, 09:59 PM
Paralus wrote:-
Paul Bardunias said:-
Now consider from the other end. Diodorus tells us(XIX.41) 'the youngest were about 60 years old, most of the others about 70 and some even older'. That makes the youngest 38 at Chaeronea, most 48, and the eldest 53.And Alexander takes them on a long walk to India 5 years after that? Not very likely, is it? :lol:
But there is also a 'giveaway' in Diodorus' text.Antigenes, the commander of the Argyraspides sends a horsemen to make a proclamation to Antigonus Phalanx. "...wicked men, are you sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander?" Notice he says'fathers' not grandfathers - clearly there is only one generation between Antigonus' raw young soldiers and the Argyraspides, or else Antigonus' army are in their mid 40's to mid 50's !!
hock: Again, not very likely..... :roll: :lol:
....and I notice it is newsworthy that there is one59 year-old linebacker, not thousands...... :wink: :wink:
Quote:Again, I wouldn't become overly concerned with the pelte/aspis argument. These blokes knew well the sarissa and its use. Going to have to disagree with this. Whilst individually they may well have been able to do this, there is no evidence whatsoever that the original Hypaspists fought with anything other than Aspis and Dory - the so-called Alexander sarcophogus for example portrays troops who can only be Hypaspists fighting with this gear. The hypaspist court guard carried such - a rather odd thing but there you go. Why? The Hoplite was a social class above the hoi-polloi. A sarissa is hardly a practical weapon on guard duty indoors either. As well, the Argyraspids are well attested operating in phalanx warfare under Eumenes both at Paraetecene and Gabiene. Aren't you overlooking that 'phalanx' just means a line of close-order heavy-armed/armoured infantry? It most certainly doesn't imply sarissa armed troops unless qualified e.g. 'phalanx armed in the Macedonian fashion'. Nowhere is this said of the Hypaspists. It is my view that, all other things being equal, the hypaspists fought the formal pitched battles (Gaugamela for example) armed as were the taxies of the phalanx. There is no evidence for this that I am aware of. They may well have worn a cuirass. Outside of these engagements they almost certainly were deployed in a version of the hoplite panoply – particularly ascending scaling ladders etc. There is no evidence that the Hypaspists were 'double- armed' with Dory and Aspis AND sarissa and pelte. There is good evidence that the Taxeis of the Pezhetaroi reverted from sarissa to the traditional pair of longche, other than when in big 'set-piece' battles
Paul Bardunias said:-
Quote:I have no problem with the advanced age of the Hypaspists. Weren't Napoleon's "grumblers" over 50? There was recently a big sports story in the USA about a 59 year old man who is actively playing linebacker on a college football team. As someone who has done this I can tell you it's no mean feat.Well, it's impossible to be certain since we cannot know for sure, but I have an extremely strong suspicion that Hieronymous was grossly exaggerating. Consider the dates and inherent military probabability.Chaeronea 338 B.C., Gabiene 316B.C. As I said , men in their prime at Chaeronea will have been born in the 360's, the eldest (probably) around 370. That makes the eldestat Gabiene in their early 50's !!
Now consider from the other end. Diodorus tells us(XIX.41) 'the youngest were about 60 years old, most of the others about 70 and some even older'. That makes the youngest 38 at Chaeronea, most 48, and the eldest 53.And Alexander takes them on a long walk to India 5 years after that? Not very likely, is it? :lol:
But there is also a 'giveaway' in Diodorus' text.Antigenes, the commander of the Argyraspides sends a horsemen to make a proclamation to Antigonus Phalanx. "...wicked men, are you sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander?" Notice he says'fathers' not grandfathers - clearly there is only one generation between Antigonus' raw young soldiers and the Argyraspides, or else Antigonus' army are in their mid 40's to mid 50's !!
hock: Again, not very likely..... :roll: :lol: ....and I notice it is newsworthy that there is one59 year-old linebacker, not thousands...... :wink: :wink:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
