The Boiotian Shield

[Paullus Scipio]

Nikolaos/Cole wrote:

The Chigi vase shows groups running to catch up with other groups already in combat. Are they rear ranks, or other groups which are running up to form a front in a syncopated fashion? There are figures still arming up, which would further tend to support an interpretation of groups coming into battle in a erratic fashion.

...like I said, the scene is open to interpretation, and could just as easily represent three sequences in time - arming up, the charge and then the combat. The presence of the Aulos player to set a rhythm, also adds weight to the idea of an organised body of men acting together - i.e. a phalanx.

Now, Paul MS, you've gotten a bit disingenuous in your arguments. The Ionians did indeed fight the Persians, and they were slapped silly time and again, often because some of the Greeks lost their nerve and panicked and either buggered off or switched sides.

Even the putative victory at Sardis which they suckered the Athenians into helping them with was a bad showing. Their surprise was fumbled, the Persians held the citadel against much superior numbers and they had to settle for accidentally burning the whole town.

So it is hardly propoganda when Herodotus says that the Athenians were the first to face the Medes and not panic.

I don't think I am being disingenuous at all. Herodotus several time speaks of the courage of the Ionians in their doomed battles with the Persians under Harpagus. Thanks to Persian siege skills in the form of earth ramps, raised under cover of massed archery the cities fell one by one.
Here are some examples of Ionians fighting bravely - these Hellenes did not panic at the mere sight of Median dress !
Herodotus I.169:

These alone of all the Ionians left their native cities because they would not endure subjection: but all the other Ionians except the Milesians did indeed contend in arms with Harpagos as the Phocaeans and Teians had done, and proved themselves brave men, fighting each for his own native city; but in spite of acts of great courage in defence of their homes they were defeated; their towns taken and they were forced to submit to their new masters.

....and this for a terrible example of desperate courage....

I.176:

After a time the Pedasians were conquered; and the Lykians, when Harpagos marched his army into the plain of Xanthos, came out against him and fought, few against many, and displayed proofs of valour; but being defeated and confined within their city, they gathered together into the citadel their wives and their children, their property and their servants, and after that they set fire to this citadel, so that it was all in flames, and having done so and sworn terrible oaths with one another, they went forth against the enemy and were slain in fight, that is to say all the men of Xanthos

Of course, some tamely submitted, or, like the Phocaeans, departed West and abanded their city, but as Herodotus tells us, many fought bravely.....

You've pointed out that Herodotus himself wasn't Athenian, but importantly, his sources for Marathon were , and the statement about Athenians being the first Hellenes not to panic facing Median dress is surely Athenian propaganda,their proud boast, faithfully reproduced by Herodotus ("It is my principle that I ought to repeat what is said; but I am not bound always to believe it" ), especially in light of what Herodotus himself tells us about about the bravery of many of the Ionians.