04-02-2009, 11:56 PM
Ruben wrote:
As to whether the men on the Chigi vase carry one or two spears, that is not relevant to the point I made, namely that most if not all the salient features of full-blown Phalanx warfare seem to be present in that depiction.Of course it is possible, given the limited means of the medium to argue otherwise but as we know, that is true of almost all our ancient evidence.... :wink: :?
On balance of probability, I believe the Chigi vase was intended to, and does, depict Phalanx warfare ( Van Wees and others notwithstanding)
Quote:See Hans van Wees, "The Development of the Hoplite Phalanx: Iconography and Reality in the Seventh Century" for this. He is one of, if not the strongest proponents of the existence of the Boeotian shield and the late development of the phalanx, and he addresses just about all of your points, especially the Chigi vase and the other depictions of warfare which have been pointed to as evidence of the phalanx being in use in the seventh century. While I disagree with some of his conclusions, I think his main point - that the iconographic evidence does not prove that the phalanx in the sense that Thucydides knew it was in use at this time, and that the literary evidence shows that such phalanx combat was not known by the time of Tyrtaeus - is an important one and well made. He also makes a few good points about the general use of the Argive shield which a lot of people seem to miss. As he points out, the men on the Chigi vase all carry two spears - the second ones, held in their shield hands, are very faded, but are still visible on good reproductions of the vases.....I would agree that that the evidence for this period is indeed scarce, with little literature save epic poems such as Tyrtaeus - whose work is cited more frequently FOR the existence of Phalanx warfare than against, and not much iconography either. I am afraid I am not a fan of Van Wees, finding that I often disagree with his conclusions. His "Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities" is often referred to as 'revolutionary' yet contains nothing not already well-known, though perhaps re-emphasising these things was timely, and also has it's fair share of 'howlers' e.g. "( the trireme)... was the sole fighting vessel in the Mediterranean for several centuries, with some slight modifications." - totally wrong!
As to whether the men on the Chigi vase carry one or two spears, that is not relevant to the point I made, namely that most if not all the salient features of full-blown Phalanx warfare seem to be present in that depiction.Of course it is possible, given the limited means of the medium to argue otherwise but as we know, that is true of almost all our ancient evidence.... :wink: :?
On balance of probability, I believe the Chigi vase was intended to, and does, depict Phalanx warfare ( Van Wees and others notwithstanding)
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
