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(Late) (Roman) Formations
#4
Although we could discuss this separately, in a thread about Late Roman infantry deployment, it’s also dealing with plumbatae, so I’ll continue here (we can always split it off):
Quote:Without wishing to be pointed, my reference to faulty tactics was aimed at your belief that against infantry the rear four ranks open up and throw, while the front four ranks close up and push/fight. I fear I still believe the 8 ranks would be closed up, braced, and pushing as one on command.
Against horses the rear ranks could open up, since you can get away with a great deal against horse.
But against infantry it's a pushing match, with a bit of steel when the opportunity arises.
Just my view, you don't have to agree me.
Well, don't mind if I do, but with both Vegetius as well as Maurice in hand, I have to.

Technically, I object to ‘pushing matches’, because I doubt that the Romans had enemies that used such tactics. Sassanid Persian armies never had any massed infantry that allowed such pushing matches anyway. And when you look at the enormous spikes on Germanic shield bosses, it’s clear that these are not suited for massed infantry pushing matches. Therefore, I doubt that Roman armies developed such tactics. Maybe they used it against other Roman armies?

Returning to plumbatae throwing, I hope I did not imply that the rear ranks opened up to throw them. I think they either remained open during the throwing of any missiles (see Vegetius below), or they closed up from a more open formation directly after deploying from the marching column. But I think that once closed (Vegetius’ 3 ft. for each man, not between each man), they remained closed. Which is why I think that plumbatae are hard to throw by the front line (maybe only by the front rank), but were mainly thrown by the rear ranks.

Here’s where I get it from:

VEGETIUS

Vegetius, although difficult to read with his 'Legio Antiqua' that nevertheless carrying 'modern weapons like veruta, spicula and plumbatae, form his army in three lines.

VEG.II.15:
Front line, cohorts 1-5, have the officers, NCO's and standard-bearers at the very front (Vegetius calls them principes, Ammianus mentions antesignani, but Vegetius most likely refers to the whole line), and reports they have the heaviest armour (yet another argument against troops rotation). These men have semispathae as well as plumbatae.

Second line, also similarly armed (but no officers, standards, etc.) are called hastati, cohorts 6-10.

Third line, light troops, 'now' called exculcatores, but also scutati with swords, javelins and plumbatae, "just as almost all soldiers seem to be armed today", he adds. Also in the third rank are archers, fustibali and balistarii.

This seemingly clear description, whatever we can make of it, seems like a clear description of a triplex acies, 2 heavy and one light infantry line. Only, he spoils that in the next chapter (16) where he falls back on a very archaic description of the ancient hastati, who come to the aid of the troops in front, when these get tired. This is totally different from the hastati described in ch. 15, so I am inclined to disregard it.

VEG.III.14:
This is supposedly a description of a deployment of his own day.

Again, he describes the heaviest armoured and most experienced line (acies) to be in front (principes), whilst the second line ('formerly called hastati') is formed by archers, javelin- and light spear-armed troops (spiculae and lanceae).
Between both lines, Vegetius sees at least 6 ft. of space, whilst he advises for the light troops to have enough space to throw their missiles (which, oddly enough, no longer seem to include plumbatae).

A third line is now also consisting of light infantry ('formerly called ferentarii'), archers and javelin-men.

A fourth line, is also consisting of archers, javelin-men, but also scutarii, and here we meet the plumbatae again.

Vegetius sees aciem I and II as static, whilst III and IV challenge the enemy in the earlier stages of battle, whilst returning to a position behind I and II when the enemy advances and battle commences.

A fifth line is also there, the (carro)balistarii , funditores and fundibulatores with the heavier missiles.

There even was a sixth line, clearly a reserve, ('formerly the triarii'), consisting of reliable troops with the more common armament.

MAURIKIOS

Maurice echoes this, in a way.
MAU XII.8-9:
Maurice places the poorest infantry behind, but organises the rest into 16 files. The most reliable of these form lines 1-4 and 13-16. The weaker ones form lines 5-8 and 9-13.

Then. Maurice continues to say that all heavy- and light-armed troops should be divided and drawn in four equal contingents. This reflects Vegetius acies I and II (heavy) and III and IV (light), with the aciem V counting as artillery specialists, not regular infantry, whereas Vegetius’ acies VI is reflected in the 4 rear lines of Maurice. The difference in strength of these 4 rear lines is the difference in warfare – by the 6th c., there was much more cavalry, and the infantry clearly need to worry more about envelopment or attack from the rear. This is reflected in battle drill as well, where the front line should be able to switch from front to back in no time.

MAU XII.11-12:
Again, Maurice mentions that the light armed men form the rear. He even specifies that the men with the plumbatae should never be in the middle of the files, but to the rear or on the flanks.

_____________Here concludes the evidence___________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Messages In This Thread
(Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 06-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 06-27-2007, 02:46 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 06-29-2007, 09:43 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-08-2007, 04:46 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-12-2007, 06:45 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-18-2007, 05:52 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-19-2007, 12:09 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-19-2007, 09:33 AM
EVENTS - by Graham Sumner - 07-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-19-2007, 02:06 PM
Middlewich - by Graham Sumner - 07-19-2007, 02:10 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-19-2007, 06:13 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-20-2007, 06:11 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-20-2007, 05:10 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-20-2007, 05:44 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-20-2007, 06:16 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-21-2007, 06:17 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-21-2007, 07:20 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-21-2007, 11:48 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-21-2007, 11:57 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by sonic - 07-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-21-2007, 12:32 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Mithras - 07-21-2007, 01:23 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-21-2007, 01:47 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by sonic - 07-21-2007, 05:01 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-21-2007, 07:32 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-21-2007, 07:40 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by sonic - 07-21-2007, 07:59 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-21-2007, 08:02 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-22-2007, 08:37 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-22-2007, 09:13 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-22-2007, 09:55 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-22-2007, 11:56 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-22-2007, 02:53 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by sonic - 07-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-22-2007, 07:47 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by falco - 07-22-2007, 09:48 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by falco - 07-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Salvianus - 07-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-23-2007, 03:59 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by falco - 07-23-2007, 06:08 AM
Roman Late Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-23-2007, 06:23 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by falco - 07-23-2007, 06:40 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-23-2007, 07:11 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Et tu brute - 07-23-2007, 07:40 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-23-2007, 10:05 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by sonic - 07-23-2007, 11:51 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-23-2007, 05:00 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Salvianus - 07-23-2007, 05:16 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Felix - 07-23-2007, 08:00 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007, 12:25 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-24-2007, 08:33 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-24-2007, 08:59 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by sonic - 07-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-24-2007, 02:13 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Salvianus - 07-24-2007, 02:14 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-24-2007, 02:35 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Salvianus - 07-24-2007, 03:48 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Salvianus - 07-24-2007, 04:09 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-24-2007, 04:19 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-24-2007, 05:08 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by sonic - 07-24-2007, 06:26 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2007, 07:04 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2007, 07:09 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Felix - 07-24-2007, 09:12 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by L C Cinna - 07-24-2007, 09:59 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Salvianus - 07-24-2007, 10:21 PM
Late Roman formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007, 10:59 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007, 11:25 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Felix - 07-24-2007, 11:46 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-24-2007, 11:52 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-25-2007, 12:09 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-25-2007, 01:14 AM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-25-2007, 01:19 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Salvianus - 07-25-2007, 02:55 PM
Late Roman formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-25-2007, 11:31 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-26-2007, 07:41 AM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-26-2007, 08:09 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-26-2007, 08:40 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by geala - 07-26-2007, 09:17 AM
Late Roman formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-26-2007, 11:04 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by geala - 07-26-2007, 12:22 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by hoplite14gr - 07-26-2007, 12:59 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-26-2007, 01:19 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-26-2007, 01:46 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-26-2007, 03:18 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-26-2007, 04:00 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by John Conyard - 07-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Felix - 07-26-2007, 05:10 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Aryaman2 - 07-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-26-2007, 09:23 PM
Late Roman Formations - by Paullus Scipio - 07-26-2007, 09:34 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by geala - 07-27-2007, 08:20 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 07-27-2007, 11:15 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by hoplite14gr - 07-27-2007, 12:24 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-27-2007, 08:02 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by ed valerio - 07-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 07-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by ed valerio - 08-02-2007, 01:01 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 08-02-2007, 01:06 PM
Re: Late Roman Formations - by Salvianus - 08-15-2007, 11:08 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by ed valerio - 09-15-2007, 04:25 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 09-15-2007, 05:57 PM
Wheeler, Phalanx 1 - by D B Campbell - 09-15-2007, 10:51 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Theo - 09-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Robert Vermaat - 09-21-2007, 01:12 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Salvianus - 09-23-2007, 08:33 PM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Tarbicus - 09-24-2007, 07:28 AM
Re: (Late) (Roman) Formations - by Theo - 10-08-2007, 07:19 PM

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