Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting

[Paullus Scipio]

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Mein panzer wrote:-
"Well, if I properly understand what you are implying- that because Phoenicians in Phoenicia employed a type of soldier, it would not be unreasonable to assume that the Carthaginians employed such soldiers- then I think that logically that is not correct."

As you will know, Sidon at this time lay within the seleucid empire, and the mercenaries/thureophroi on the tombstones will have been troops of the garrison in Seleucid employ. We are here merely concerned with the appearance/equipment of "mercenaries", and whether that appearance extended west to include carthaginian mercenaries. On the strength of the tomb of Abd-Asart (for thureos), the spanish coins (hellenistic helmets),cultural trade/conact/alliances (Carthage to Phoenicia and Italy/Etruria ), Poybius (for longche armed) etc, I would argue that this is very likely to be correct. Incidently, one further point for carthaginian use of Hellenistic helmets is the finding of several Statuettes in the Balearic Isles. The figures are naked and armed with caetra, and a missing weapon ( spear/longche - one found intact had a spear/longche 6-7 ft long ). They wear only two types of helmet, a cheekless 'montefortino' type - which resembles the one on Abd-Asart's tomb, and variations of the classical 'Thracian', often cheekless, some with horsehair crests, others with side feathers. Because the statuettes are otherwise naked, they are often described as being of a Balearic war-god. Clearly Thracian helmet types were used as far west as Spain and the Balearics. How would they become known there ? Via Carthage, of course !


Mein panzer wrote:-
"If you are indeed referring just to the Greek misthophoroi, then no, the fact that we know of their use in the east and the way they were equipped cannot logically be carried over to the western Mediterranean. These troops were primarily used east of Greece. '

Primarily, perhaps but not exclusively ! While there may not have been many greek mercenaries in Hannibal's army, earlier, in the first Punic war Carthage had employed many.Diodorus(19.106.2) tells us that a quarter of the army were Libyans ( whether levies or paid mercenaries is uncertain-those sent overseas must have been paid, if only to subsist).Polybius tells of Ligurians,Celts,Spaniards,Numidians and Greeks. These greeks included Spartans, the most famous of whom was of course, Xanthippus.I don't think your point about difficulties of travel is valid - greeks had travelled the whole mediterranean in numbers,raiding, planting colonies and as mercenaries for centuries.
Mein panzer wrote:-
"Your source for the Cretan red tunic wouldn't happen to be the Sidonian stele of Diodotos the Cretan, would it? If so, are you aware of the stele of Chalkokedes the Cretan, c. 200 BC from Demetrias in Macedonia? He is a mercenary archer who wears a white tunic with a dark blue cloak. So, if we include this evidence, white is as likely as red."
Some confusion, here, I think. It was not I who suggested red cretan tunics, but Stefanos. You asked for a source, and I merely supplied the one I think he was referring to - who, incidently, is not an archer.
Mein panzer wrote:-
" This is because they had ready local employment around the eastern Mediterranean and wouldn't have needed to bother heading west"
.
see above, Carthage did employ greek mercenaries in numbers.

Mein panzer wrote:-
"

( as an aside, we also hear - Polybius - of a troop type called Thorakitai or 'breastplate wearers' in the Achean and Seleucid armies,who are sometimes described as "armed in the Roman fashion".

Which passage refers to them as armed in the Roman fashion? I know of the one Polybian mention of thorakitai in the Seleucid army (crossing the Elburz range), but I am not familiar with his mention of thorakitai being armed in the Roman fashion. Unless you are referring to the reformed troops armed in the Roman fashion in the Daphnae parade, in which case those are a separate body from the thorakitai referred to earlier.

These too appear on tomb paintings as thureophroi with the addition of mail body armour.

We have one painted stele showing a soldier with mail armour- Salmas of Adada. Out of the dozens of painted stelae found, he is the only one that wears mail."

That is a shrewdly observed point and having given it further thought, I agree with you. The "usual" connection between troops armed in "Roman fashion" and Samas' tomb does not hold up. Mail at this point was still very rare.Thorakitai simply means 'breastplate -wearers', and need not imply mail. "Roman fashion" also does not imply mail at this time.The first depiction of uniform mail appears on the Roman late 2nd century 'Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus', after Marius reforms led to the State supplying arms to the whole army (States had been supplying armies in part at least as far back as Athens supplying ephebes and maybe earlier).It is unfortunate that illustrators/researchers have concentrated on showing mail and pectorales, giving a false impression. I believe Hastati mostly had no body armour, that it was more plentiful among the Principes, with perhaps a sprinkling of mail, and that pectorales, and some mail was prevalent among the Triarii.

Whilst on that subject, thanks for posting the three-feathered helmet ! Fantastic ! When Duncan was writing 'Macedonian and Punic wars', he and I debated as to how the legionary crests should be depicted, Duncan suggesting the one he illustrated, from Polybius' description; and I arguing for a central horsehair crest with side-feathers (on iconographic grounds - paintings,sculpture etc ) We were evidently both wrong,and also both right !!
By the way, I would be grateful if you could put me in touch with Duncan ( I tried a PM here but it seems he has "dropped out" of watching RAT ) as he and I lost touch many years ago.