06-11-2007, 09:19 AM
I guess it's about time to make a contribution, and see if I can clear up a few outstanding points.
First, it should be remembered that Carthage was the centre of a vast mercantile empire,and its mother city, Tyre, was in the middle of the seleucid empire - only 10 days or so by sea away. Carthage was also so wealthy that it repaid crippling war indemnities to Rome, early, more than once. It could thus afford to arm its own troops with the choicest of imported arms, including thracian or any other Hellenistic equipment.Thracian helmets were particularly popular with Etruscans, with whom Carthage had long-standing trade/alliances.
The reference referred to in "Warfare in the classical world" is to the battle of Crimisus (Krimisos ) in Sicily-339 B.C.-3 years before Alexander became king of Macedon.It is from Plutarch's life of Timoleon 6.xxviii ,referring to the Carthaginian sacred band, leading the van across the Crimisus river; "But these withstood his (Timoleon's) first onset sturdily, and owing to the iron breastplates ( usually interpreted as mail, but just conceivably the iron corselets like Philip's or Demetrius' )and bronze helmets with which their persons were protected and the great shields (aspides - and apparently white) which they held in front of them repelled the spear thrusts. But when the struggle came to swords...." the noble sacred band were annihilated, which apparently cured Carthaginian upper classes from indulging in matters military .
From around 400B.C onward, Etruscans and Romans came into contact with Gauls and their Mail ( Varro tells us that the Celts invented it), and it quickly appears on Etruscan monuments etc
But all this need not concern Dan, who wishes to concentrate on Hannibal's war !!
It is this which led Connolly to interpret the relief in "Greece and Rome at War" as mail but this is highly unlikely - first because the shoulder fastenings are Hellenistic ties, and nothing like mail fastenings, and second because the reliefs at Kbor Klib and Chemtou, though they show Aspides, Hellenistic helmets and corselets, and were once dated on this basis to Hellenistic times actually date to late republican times (c.105 B.C -jugurthine war, orc.46 B.C. -Caesar defeats Pompeians ) because they are identical in style (to the point where they might have been done by the same sculptor) to late Republican sculpture in Rome.They are no guide at all to Carthaginian armour.
Livy, in his wonderful description of Cannae ( XXII,46 ) tells us;"To look at them,one might have thought the Africans were Roman soldiers -their arms were largely Roman, having been part of the spoils at Trasimene and some too at the Trebia. The Gallic and Spanish contingents carried shields of similar shape ( therefore thureos/scutum type ), but their swords were of different pattern..."
Because the Romans obliterated Carthage ( and Corinth in the same year - 146 B.C.- shades of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and like the U.S.A against Japan, after this frightfulness, Rome never needed to do it again in the mediterranean world ), we have no books or literature, or art, or sculpture to aid us regarding Carthage's native and Liby-phoenician African troops - other than a single tomb relief, the tomb of Abd-asart ( servant of Astarte), apparently a numidian with a Carthaginian name. We don't know which side he fought on, but his tomb shows his armament as thureos, simple helmet (like pilos, or Negau type - similar to the trophy 'Persian' helmet ar Olympia - which could be that of a phoenician marine)
He is armed with two longche/lancea -and we should lay a myth to rest here. Polybius refers to peltast-type troops in Hannibal's army called Longchophoroi which the translator in the Loeb edition mis-translated as "pikemen" !!! They are, in fact, armed with the short spear ( for throwing or thrusting ) called Longche - lancea in latin !
First, it should be remembered that Carthage was the centre of a vast mercantile empire,and its mother city, Tyre, was in the middle of the seleucid empire - only 10 days or so by sea away. Carthage was also so wealthy that it repaid crippling war indemnities to Rome, early, more than once. It could thus afford to arm its own troops with the choicest of imported arms, including thracian or any other Hellenistic equipment.Thracian helmets were particularly popular with Etruscans, with whom Carthage had long-standing trade/alliances.
The reference referred to in "Warfare in the classical world" is to the battle of Crimisus (Krimisos ) in Sicily-339 B.C.-3 years before Alexander became king of Macedon.It is from Plutarch's life of Timoleon 6.xxviii ,referring to the Carthaginian sacred band, leading the van across the Crimisus river; "But these withstood his (Timoleon's) first onset sturdily, and owing to the iron breastplates ( usually interpreted as mail, but just conceivably the iron corselets like Philip's or Demetrius' )and bronze helmets with which their persons were protected and the great shields (aspides - and apparently white) which they held in front of them repelled the spear thrusts. But when the struggle came to swords...." the noble sacred band were annihilated, which apparently cured Carthaginian upper classes from indulging in matters military .
From around 400B.C onward, Etruscans and Romans came into contact with Gauls and their Mail ( Varro tells us that the Celts invented it), and it quickly appears on Etruscan monuments etc
But all this need not concern Dan, who wishes to concentrate on Hannibal's war !!
It is this which led Connolly to interpret the relief in "Greece and Rome at War" as mail but this is highly unlikely - first because the shoulder fastenings are Hellenistic ties, and nothing like mail fastenings, and second because the reliefs at Kbor Klib and Chemtou, though they show Aspides, Hellenistic helmets and corselets, and were once dated on this basis to Hellenistic times actually date to late republican times (c.105 B.C -jugurthine war, orc.46 B.C. -Caesar defeats Pompeians ) because they are identical in style (to the point where they might have been done by the same sculptor) to late Republican sculpture in Rome.They are no guide at all to Carthaginian armour.
Livy, in his wonderful description of Cannae ( XXII,46 ) tells us;"To look at them,one might have thought the Africans were Roman soldiers -their arms were largely Roman, having been part of the spoils at Trasimene and some too at the Trebia. The Gallic and Spanish contingents carried shields of similar shape ( therefore thureos/scutum type ), but their swords were of different pattern..."
Because the Romans obliterated Carthage ( and Corinth in the same year - 146 B.C.- shades of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and like the U.S.A against Japan, after this frightfulness, Rome never needed to do it again in the mediterranean world ), we have no books or literature, or art, or sculpture to aid us regarding Carthage's native and Liby-phoenician African troops - other than a single tomb relief, the tomb of Abd-asart ( servant of Astarte), apparently a numidian with a Carthaginian name. We don't know which side he fought on, but his tomb shows his armament as thureos, simple helmet (like pilos, or Negau type - similar to the trophy 'Persian' helmet ar Olympia - which could be that of a phoenician marine)
He is armed with two longche/lancea -and we should lay a myth to rest here. Polybius refers to peltast-type troops in Hannibal's army called Longchophoroi which the translator in the Loeb edition mis-translated as "pikemen" !!! They are, in fact, armed with the short spear ( for throwing or thrusting ) called Longche - lancea in latin !
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
