Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting

[Duncan Head]

What are the details on the tomb of Eubolos? Was this a Greek infantryman armed with a thureos and boeotian helmet?

Probably. Feyel (Polybe et l'histoire de la Beotie) discusses Boiotian inscriptions that describe young citizens being recruited into the thureaphoroi - dating from about the 270s to 240s.

[marcus_the_barbary_lion]

From the refs I've seen, they're more greek looking than anything. They look like Spartan armor, at least the Sacred Guard.

[kistlerj]

Even the elephants used by Carthage are extinct.


Not exactly. The Romans did drive the African Forest elephant to extinction in North Africa, but it continues to live in western africa (north benin, nigeria, chad) and other regions. Actually it was just officially recognized as a separate species by the worlds scientists in recent years. They tend to be a few feet shorter than their large Savannah cousins, with straighter tusks used for digging rather than fighting. They also seem to be darker (not light grey) perhaps because they live in the jungle and find the dark color more camoflaging. They are smaller than Asian and Savannah elephants, hence the ancient truth that Asian war elephants WERE bigger than Carthage or Egypt's war elephants.

So no, not extinct, but certainly not common.

[kistlerj]

The easiest folks for you to copy in a Carthaginian dress up display would be the famous Numidian cavalry. They liked to ride in the nude, wearing only a leopard skin sash over the shoulder. Of course it might cause legal problems if done in public.

[Dan Z]

Hmmmm...yes, that would be sort of an easy impression to do. Finding a horse and the leopard skin would be a challenge and not getting arrested would be an even greater challenge.

For the crossing of the Alps though, I imagine the Numidians would have been equipped in a more Celtic or Iberian manner - unless that leopard skin sash is warmer than you'd think it would be. :lol:

[L. Marius Victor]

If you want a good book to read about the 2nd Punic war (Historical Fiction), I recommend "Pride of Carthage" by David Durham. The Carthaginians came so close to destroying early Rome, it makes me wonder what Europe would be like if they had.

[barcid]

If you want a good book to read about the 2nd Punic war (Historical Fiction), I recommend "Pride of Carthage" by David Durham. The Carthaginians came so close to destroying early Rome, it makes me wonder what Europe would be like if they had.

Agreed a good read & Europe probobly would have more Punic reenactors with fringe Romans who have little or no info to play with.

Greetings friends ! first post , this thread is very interesting for me thanks, ive wanted to have a go at a punic impression for some time & have finally made a start . my minds eye view of a punic Vet. in Italy post the first victories , Eg. Bronze Italio/corinthian helmet , Lorcia hamata , aspis White with an abstract sign of Tanit o(< , Bronze greave Left leg , Delos sword & simple pugio suspended from trophy Centurians belt , long sleeve unbleached linen tunic knee length , red or white wool roman military tunic over that as backing for the hamata , Greek spear , booty roman military cloak & shoes .
with that i can move the impression around in time by replacing hamata with a linothorax or spolas ( ?) / or introduce a scutum ,pilum /celtic spear combo

Ok what you all think .cheers Barcid

[Paullus Scipio]

....a Punic veteran carrying an "Aspis" would likely be a pure anachronism in the second Punic War. What little evidence we have points to a 'Thureos/scutum' equipped African veteran. ( e.g. tomb of Abdasart in North Africa), and the fact that it was almost certainly Hamilcar Barca and the Cartaginians who introduced the 'Thureos/scutum' to Spain, at least to the South-eastern part.It is possible that Spanish 'scutarii' were equipped with oval shields made in the workshops of 'Nova Cartago'.

The clear implication is that African troops were thureos equipped from well before the second Punic War.

[barcid]

....a Punic veteran carrying an "Aspis" would likely be a pure anachronism in the second Punic War. What little evidence we have points to a 'Thureos/scutum' equipped African veteran. ( e.g. tomb of Abdasart in North Africa), and the fact that it was almost certainly Hamilcar Barca and the Cartaginians who introduced the 'Thureos/scutum' to Spain, at least to the South-eastern part.It is possible that Spanish 'scutarii' were equipped with oval shields made in the workshops of 'Nova Cartago'.

The clear implication is that African troops were thureos equipped from well before the second Punic War.

thanks for the reply Paullus Scipio , in fact i agree entirely ,i would not have got a bite if iwas too clever ,has anyone in Oz broken the ice & produced a Thureos here , i see the Sydney Ancients have some nice Scutum , i have emailed them await reply , Re Aspice would be nice with an earlier Sicily Campaign based impression . You feel im on the right page with the general impression i have in mind then ? . this image would translate nicely onto a captured Roman scutum me thinks . cheers

[Paullus Scipio]

Barcid wrote:-

Eg. Bronze Italio/corinthian helmet highly likely, or similar shaped conical Punic type - see e.g. pp144-147 "Armies and Enemies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head , Lorcia hamata ,Very likely aspis White with an abstract sign of Tanit o(< , Probably not - see previous post re: Thureos/scutum...as to decoration, see discussion earlier this thread....Tanit was not a goddess the Barcids particularly honoured, perhaps known Barcid emblems such as horses head, horse and palm ( Hannibal had a horses head emblem according to Roman poet Silius Italicus ( see ante this thread, IIRC) Bronze greave Left leg , ...or perhaps both legs - there would be sufficient captured greaves for this... Delos sword & simple pugio suspended from trophy Centurians belt , ...a little early for pugio, a Spanish weapon the Romans had not yet adopted, but it is just possible that a Punic soldier might have one from Spain - on balance, probably not... long sleeve unbleached linen tunic knee length , red or white wool roman military tunic over that as backing for the hamata , ...Hannibal's army had been re-supplied en route with Gallic clothing. Once having crossed the Alps, and being in a hot southern Italian summer at Cannae for example, breeches would likely have been discarded and just a tunic worn ( see p.144 Duncan Head AMPW ante), or as you suggest, there were plenty of captured Roman tunics... Greek spear , ......more likely a Hasta style spear or most likely of all, a short dual-purpose spear for throwing or thrusting ( the longche).. booty roman military cloak & shoes .
with that i can move the impression around in time by replacing hamata with a linothorax or spolas ( ?) / or introduce a scutum ,pilum /celtic spear combo

see above interpolations in red....

[barcid]

While having a nice time at the recent Keltica encampment in Australia , a few of us were talking of punic impressions in the time after the early victories & combining our gear came up with this . A Gaul in merc. service having done well has upgraded some of his kit with a view to serve in the Veteran Phalanx. Off the cuff impression :wink: & simular to what i hope to develop myself. the Model is Andrew "I think he had FUN :lol: regards dave

[MeinPanzer]

Sorry everyone who asked questions about the stele; I completely lost track of this thread. Anyway, better late than never...

Was the soldier armed with bow, shield and javelins? Is this Greek or Macedonian?
Johnny

As Wolfgang wrote, he carries a bow while his attendant holds some javelins and carries a shield, but according to old descriptions of this stele before its paint faded, the man himself also had a curved dagger.

Edit: 1. BTW, what do you think about the footwear of the Cretan and his servant? Unfortunately the lower part of the picture is not well preserved. The servant is barefoot, but could the different colour on the lowest part of the left leg of the Cretan archer be interpreted as the top of a boot/sandal boot? Or is the colour of the flesh just damaged or faded away?

We can't see the servant's feet either, as the legs are cut off right at the ankle. The other stele of a Cretan from Demetrias shows the deceased wearing pointy shoes that reach only to the ankle rather than boots, though. The spot on the lower left leg doesn't look like damage to me, so I think it could have been the top of a boot.

2. What kind of bow do you identify?

The bow I am far from certain about, but looking closely at the stele and the pictures, I thought I was able to make out some faint traces of its shape. Here is the basic shape as I see it:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... halbow.JPG

The most visible trace is between his hand and his leg.

For those interested, I will be publishing photos and a full writeup on both these stelai plus some other information and discussion of Hellenistic Cretan mercenaries in general in a forthcoming issue of Ancient Warfare.

[Paullus Scipio]

Very nice impression, especially since it is 'spontaneous'. A 'laus' for you!

The helmet is intriguing.....leather? What is it based on?

And who made/makes the nice scutum, sword etc? More details please!

[barcid]

Hi Paullus, Helm is leather ,made by Andy here on RAT ,1st, cent b.c. Gallic i believe , somewhat like a Pilos with brim & cheek pieces ,Scutum is mine 8) .Glad you enjoyed it cheers

[Andy]

Hi Dave, Andrew did enjoy that, and he liked the maille hammatta also.
The helmet is based upon this one

Its creation an inspiration from this group in France who re-enact the Ambiani, they are called.....Ambiani! http://www.ambiani.celtique.org/