Linothorax design/construction

[Paullus Scipio]

Sincemost spolades/Tube-and-yoke corselets must have been made by individual craftsmen( and quite possibly several in combination if different materials were used), we would logically expect that there be many variations....

I wonder if in Large Armies Such as Alexander the Greats , If there where such things as " Munitions " Armour made for troops in mass , all about the same , ??

..before entering India, Alexander famously received re-inforcements who brought with them 25,000 panoplies - enough to re-equip the entire infantry and then some! Interestingly, this was because the old ones were not only worn, but flea/lice-ridden etc. The old ones were burnt. ( see previous threads). These may thus have been produced 'to order' and therefore been fairly standard.....

[Hypaspist]

Paul M,
yes of Course , I have read through all of thread, Cannot say I remember every word and Of Course I Know about the Burning Of the Armour and Re-suiting as it was before entering India by Alexanders Army . My Thought was more Of , How Much " Cheaper " these may have been made , What material difference and to what standard do they compare to The ones that a Individual may buy from a private source , if indeed these replacements my have been made by state Armouries even ?? All the same material ?? These thoughts . like the Cheaper produced munition Armours of the late Middle Ages ? Early Modern period .. :roll:
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

What confuses me is that we do know armour was being custom made. And that it had to fit properly(Xenophon adds to this). First I do not believe that these 25.000 panoplies included helmets and greaves. They may have included shields,spears and I wonder about the thorakes. Could each soldier have given an "order" at least specifying the size he needed? No sign there were sizes in anything greek, not even shoes, but we all know that "one size fits all" equipment is equal to "one size fits none"
What do you think?
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

No sign there were sizes in anything greek, not even shoes, but we all know that "one size fits all" equipment is equal to "one size fits none"
What do you think?

Interesting Giannis. I wonder how "adjustable" a yube and yoke could be by simply lengthening or shortening the tie-downs for the yoke.

[Hypaspist]

Gentlemen,
If we use a modern world analogy , Most men will fit into a basic three sizes , Small , Medium and Large . There is even a formula to base a average balance of these sizes in any population . I would not see any reason such a balance would not exist in a Ancient population too ( Of course , not the same sizes as a Modern population ! ) I would also venture that it would be Possible and Plausible , for a scenario where each " Unit Leader " would Turn in a Order of so many Small , Medium and Large .. a throw in a few Extra large , or very Small ! Giving the Design Of Such Armour as a "Tube and Yoke " Kind , there would be some bit of Give and take in sizing too , wiggle room as it would be . I would not ascribe to a let us measure every man theory !
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Vishtaspa]

Khairete!

I have read carefully all the thread (it's so huge that my eyes became tired... :lol: ), it's very interesting.

I want to remark a couple of philological remarks, sorry if something is repeated in other threads;

"linothorax" is used by Homer in only two passages, in fact he uses the Ionic-epic form "linothorex", and does not mean "linen cuirass", but "a person who wears a linen cuirass" This word is a tipical compound, a kind of compounds of indoeuropean origin, yet in residual use in Homer (for example Sanskrit is very rich in this) but that disappear in archaic-classical greek.

The two passages are:

-Il. II.529: "oligos men een linothorex" "he (Ayax Oileos) was small, (armoured) with a linen cuirass (or, "linencuirassed")"

Il.II, 830: "Adrestos te kai Amfios linothorex" "Adrestus and Anfios, the linencuirassed"

In the second example, it is a tipical final verse homeric epitet. This "linothorex" is clearly in contrast with homeric "khalkeothorex"("with brasen breastplate"). Ayax Oileos is depicted as small (in contrast with the big Ayax) and swift, and the election of the epitet "linothorex" is not casual.

So, in classical greek the homeric compound "linothorax" is used no more, because compounds are archaic and strange to name an actual and contemporaneous item (asiar or greek). So we found the two words separately in Herodotus, Xenophon, etc, as has been said in the thread.

About Alcaeus, the fragment is V.140 "...thorrakes te neo lino", some philologist think that the context of this weapons is an Ares temple spoils (it is not clera because first lines are missed).

A word abour "spolas"; it is a doric form from "stolas" (from root stello), related to the most common "stole" meaning simply "dress, garment of any kind" But in Attic (Xenophon's dialect) the two words live together, "stolas" and the doric adopted form "spolas", and it is possible that this means that the doric form was in fact an specialized word for something (taken from a place with doric dialect) and the attic "stolas" is more generic for "robe, cloak". A study of all the atestiguations in all autors and contexs can help.

regards

[Hypaspist]

Inyigo,
I again take my hat off to a Forum member whoes second Language of English , is of better use than I have as my native English .This includes so many of those who post from Europe .. ect :wink: Thank You .
Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Vishtaspa]

Thank you very much, Michael, this encourages me (but I think my English is a little horrible... :oops: )

regards!

[hoplite14gr]

Sorry Inyigo but stole means either decoration or uniform.
And it is used in modern Greek.
There is a tendency in all "Into-European" languages to use T and P or F and V and K or H in their dialects.

Apart from that I agree with your post.

Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

So ignoring the spollas red herring. Is there any textual evidence that Greeks used leather armor in the classical period?

[Vishtaspa]

Sorry Inyigo but stole means either decoration or uniform.
And it is used in modern Greek.


Kind regards

Yes, agree, but I think in classical this is a context meaning for the most generic "equipment" (from the basic meaning of the root Stello: "set (in order), arrange". For example, the lion "uniform" of Herakles is called by Euripides "stolé therós" (beast's garment).
P-T as you remarked, is tipical of greek dialects and is related to other indoeuropean languages: greek tis/pis is latin quis (sanskrit chi-).

best regards

[Vishtaspa]

. Is there any textual evidence that Greeks used leather armor in the classical period?

As far as I know there is no reference in classical texts. The only hypothesis is that spolas means "leather garment", but this meaning is given by the late onomasticon by Pollux and spread by Liddell-Scott lexicon... and who knows... As somebody has said in the thread, "spolas" appears in Aristophanes Birds and has nothing to do with armour (nor with leather, the text gives no especifications)

regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The problem with the identification of "spolas" as "stolas" is that "stolas" is plural,while "spolas" is singular.In Greek:
Singular
η στολή
της στολής
τη στολή
την στολήν
ώ στολή

Plural
αι στολαί
τών στωλών
ταις στολαίς
τας στολάς
ώ στολαί

While "spolas" would be
Singular
η σπολάς
της σπολάδος
τη σπολάδι
την σπολάδαν
ώ σπολάς

Plural
Αι σπολάδες
των σπολάδων
ταις σπολάδαις
τας σπολάδας
ώ σπολάδες

So you see thw two words only would sound similar in different number and with different use. In the first Singular the one would be "στολή" while the other would be "σπολάς". Not so similar words...
Khairete
Giannis

[Vishtaspa]

The problem with the identification of "spolas" as "stolas" is that "stolas" is plural,while "spolas" is singular.

No, Giannis, I mean another word, "stolas, stolados" (exactly the same declension as spolas, spolados, but the attic form) This stolas-ados is registered in Liddel-scott lexicon and as a variant of spolas occurs in Xenophon. And, of course is related to Stole, es, but not the same word and declension.

However, "stolas-stolados" occurs in the apparatus criticus, is a variant. I haven't at hand the apparatus of Anabasis, but for example, in a Euripides' verse from Helena (1480) a manuscript reads "stolades"


regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Then you're probably right that spolas is the same as spolas,at least in some cases. And here comes the onomasticon to give a whole different definition for spolas...It confuses things a lot,but it quotes Xenophon himself.
Khaire
Giannis