Linothorax design/construction

[Dan Howard]

The Thebes find is almost certainly from a linothorax. A section of the border is still intact. Preliminary examination suggests that it consists of 10-15 layers. The excavation is ongoing. The find will not be published for many years.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Dan,what is your source for this?Is it an article we could read on the net?

[hoplite14gr]

Yannis the info come from Professor D' Amatto and A. Salimbeti.
A friend from the Levadea Archeology authority told me their claim is valid but as Dan said official announcement takes time.
Cheer up though, official announcemnents droped from 50 years to 10
Kind regardss

[geala]

Why should they attach metall scales to the armour if a solid bronze plate was in? The scales were not only on the sides but frequently also on the lower or whole torso.

Personal preference or simple availability? Identification, just like the aspis? Where the abdomen had scales, perhaps the wearer thought a pectoral in the linothorax wasn't enough, but another felt linen was enough? Why would one Roman wear a squamata, another a seg and another an hamata, all in the same campaign?

What I mean was why should you feel a pressure to add scales to a linen armour which was only the cover for a bronze plate inside? Why not make the bronze plate a bit thicker and save a lot work and weight? So I don't think the linen was the cover for bronze plates inside. Perhaps a misunderstanding. I would never doubt the individual taste of the ancient soldiers and the diversity of armour.

To what time are the findings from Thebes dated?

[hoplite14gr]

More here
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... wtopic=251

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

why should you feel a pressure to add scales to a linen armour which was only the cover for a bronze plate inside?

Scales would not have been added over the plates. The linothorax would have flat metal plates in places where we see plain linen like the front of the chest, back, and belly in many cases. These plates do not make up the whole armor under the linen as in the Vergina cuirasse, but are only where needed most- much of the cuirasse would be simply the shell in various thicknesses of linen. Shoulders for example might be just linen.

As the armor became lighter and a move from thick, perhaps awkward, plates to lighter more mobile scales occured, the scales have to move from between layers to one outer side of the shell. Scales can't be sandwiched the same way as plates. This could be inside the shell like in medieval examples, but in a Greece who's eyes are turning east at the time, the fashion value of external scales can't be ignored.

So the progression as armor lightened would be: All bronze- bronze or iron plates only at specific places in a quilted shell- scales on the shell- just the linen shell.

[geala]

But if you have a rigid and heavy metal plate inside cloth, you have to fasten it in one way or the other, otherwise the cloth will be destroyed very easily. If the plates were small and would not cover whole parts of the breast or the back, a fastening would have been even more desired, to prevent the change of position. Do you see such methods of fastening in the pictures? I have not looked at the sources under this aspect yet, but I'm very sceptical about it.

Edit: So the Thebes finds are from the "Mycenian" period or shortly afterwards? I thought I read about it, that is not so inspiring for our theme. We need a finding from after 500 BC. :wink:

[Tarbicus]

Everyone is assuming an internal pectoral made of a fairly small sheet of metal is clunkingly heavy. I bet it's much lighter than scales.

[PMBardunias]

If the plates were small and would not cover whole parts of the breast or the back, a fastening would have been even more desired, to prevent the change of position. Do you see such methods of fastening in the pictures?

The plates would fit into pouches and be secured at the edges in most cases. See my illustration.

[Dan Howard]

Will have to make a reconstruction and see if it is functional. There is nothing like it in a European context. All European composite armours consist of overlapping plates.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul insists this would be to have lighter armor.I think this method would actually add weight.Shouldn't armour have the same weight on the front and back?This would mean plates should exist in the back,too.As someone else stated,scales are not nessecarily lighter than plate armor.And is it true that in good armor most of the waight goes to the shoulders?If true,plates should be added to the shoulders,too,and together with the linen itself,which is a considerable weight,this is not light armour!And I wouldn't say it is flexible either,even if the plates are not joined together.But Dan is right that it has not been constructed by anybody i know and it should be,to know for sure.
Khairete
Giannis

[Tarbicus]

and together with the linen itself,which is a considerable weight,

Is that a linen linothorax that has been glued? I wonder how much lighter a non-glued linothorax would be.

Many Italian armours consisting of only pectoral and sometimes backplates (square, disc, triple-disc, etc), why do you need to elaborate a simple idea and not just stick to a single plate in the chest, and perhaps one in the upper back? Does it really need any more?

[Paullus Scipio]

This thread has progressed mightily while we in the Antipodes slept !!
Forgive me for going back a little.....
Geala said

a hint to the burning of the old armours of Alexanders soldiers (I don't know the source, but I have read about it), after they received new armour. You can perhaps burn leather armour but you can much better burn linen armour.

This is a reference to the re-equipping of Alexander's heavy infantry, in India, referred to by Diodorus (17.95.4 ) and Curtius (9.3.21)

At this juncture there arrived from Greece allied and mercenary troops under their own commanders, more than thirty thousand infantry and a little less than six thousand cavalry.4 They brought with them elegant suits of armour[panoplia] for twenty-five thousand foot soldiers, and a hundred talents of medical supplies. These he distributed to the soldiers.

Curtius adds the detail that the panoplies were furnished with gold and silver, and it is likely that this is where the "Silvershields" acquire their name.The old suits were burnt, probably shields and all. I don't think the fact that linen burns better then leather is relevant, else we should postulate paper armour !
BTW, this narrative shows that the whole of the phalanx and Hypaspists were equipped with body-armour, at least for this part of the campaign and almost certainly earlier , and contra those who postulate that part of the phalanx was 'light' and didn't wear body armour.......

[PMBardunias]

Is that a linen linothorax that has been glued? I wonder how much lighter a non-glued linothorax would be.

I've seen no evidence for glued armor. Now that I've studied it, I'm actually somewhat amazed that the idea took hold based on nothing.

Many Italian armours consisting of only pectoral and sometimes backplates (square, disc, triple-disc, etc), why do you need to elaborate a simple idea and not just stick to a single plate in the chest, and perhaps one in the upper back? Does it really need any more?

Thank you, it is these armors that started me thinking that the linen is primarily a shell. The linothorax is essentially the same as those armors, except they are held together by leather straps or chain links. You can think of them as the skeleton beneath the linen. It would be no more or less awkward than these armors.

I don't know what areas of the flat, scaleless sections of the linothorax held plates and which were just linen, but the existence of pectorals elsewhere gives us a clue to areas that at least some warriors considered vital and areas that did not seem to need armor. Although there are possibilities for why you would armor the sides of your armor more than the front, the pectorals seem to indicate that the priority is reversed.

[PMBardunias]

I think this method would actually add weight.

You can melt down all the bronze that makes up the front of your bell cuirasse and form yourself a thicker plate of the same weight and put it right over the vital chest region instead of wasting it on the upper chest and shoulders where it is less vital. Alternately you can use the same thickness of metal as in your old cuirasse, but now just a piece of it to cover the chest- this will weight much less.

As someone else stated,scales are not nessecarily lighter than plate armor.

I postulated them as lighter to explain why you might go from plate to scale, but it is irrelevent. If you go to scale for any reason, fashion, etc., you have to put them on the outside.

And is it true that in good armor most of the waight goes to the shoulders?If true,plates should be added to the shoulders,too,and together with the linen itself,which is a considerable weight,this is not light armour!.

The shoulders can be essentially straps for holding up the armor. Its protective value is seperate from its load-bearing function. As to the total weight, since metal is covering the vital places, the linen need not be especially thick all over. This could be quite light.