Linothorax design/construction

[Paullus Scipio]

about the continuous use of linen armour by the Greeks, and the other thoughts?

Of course it is very diffcult to say, given the lack of evidence, especially for the ninth-seventh centuries B.C.

If we start with the era of the Hoplite, let's say from mid sixth century, there is no evidence AFIK for anything other than bronze body armour until the tube-and-yoke corselet appears in Art around 520 B.C.

For thoughts on Alkaios and meaning of 'spolas' see above earlier posts.

[Paullus Scipio]

What would we do without Xenophon

Couldn't agree more ! D Surely he is our most valuable source for things military in his time...............

Isn't Xenophon saying at some point that the cuirasses with pteryges are more appropriate for cavalry?Or am I mistaken?

Let us let the Great Man speak for himself.....
"As for the pattern of the thorakes, it should be so shaped so as not to prevent the wearer from sitting down or stooping. About the abdomen and middle and round that region let the pteryges(flaps) be of such material and such a size that will keep out missiles."

note that the pteryges can be of different sizes and different materials, apparently. ( but he doesn't tell us what materials are suitable ! Blast ! )

[Sean Manning]

Paullus:

In all the works of Xenophon,he never, not even once, refers to Greeks wearing linen corselets - only Asiatics. Does that not strike anyone else as odd ?

The only time Greek authors describe scale armour is when barbarians wear it. But we know they used it from art and archaeological finds. Without those finds (and without any sculptures with a scale pattern carved on them), I could use your logic to 'prove' that the Greeks never used scale armour and merely liked painting scale patterns on other objects.

And we don't know when or where the 'linothorax' appeared or when and where it reached Greece. There is too little evidence anywhere before 500 BCE.

If we want to argue philology, think the reference in Alcaeus I found is as good as your combination of one source that says spolades are leather armour and one source that says that hoplites often wear spolades. Right now we don't know what any people called armour with this cut, or what it was made from. I call it 'linothorax' because tube-and-yoke cuirass doesn't feel like a good description and because it has become traditional like our Latin neologisms for Roman armour.

A 'heavy' cavalry armour could be a metal-reinforced linothorax, or possibly just one cut with less concern for running.

The former is possible ( though Xenophon would then have said'spolades'), the latter is not - all these 'cavalry' cuirasses were donated by Hoplites.

Do you think an armour 25% covered with scales would still be called a spolas? 50%? 100%? The 'linothorax' cut was used for every type of armour possible (plate, mail, scale, organic materials, combinations of the above). If a scale armour with this cut would have been called a spolas, then you have admitted that spolades could be made from materials other than hide.

There were more types of armour used in this period that 'linothoraxes' and bronze cuirasses.

Really ? I thought we were talking greek hoplite body armour - the two main types depicted in art being the tube and yoke corselet and the bronze muscled cuirass. Perhaps you would like to post depictions of Hoplites wearing something else.

See the "Leather Cuirass?" thread for examples.

This shall be my last post on the subject, since respectfully I don't think you are open to persuasion and we are just arguing in circles.

[PMBardunias]

Let us let the Great Man speak for himself.....

There is a wealth of knowledge in those couple of paragraphs. He mentions that leather should be used to protect under the right arm, so leather obviously is considered a possible element in armor.

On the other side he mentions that the most vulnerable portion of a horse can be well protected by a quilted blanket.

I look forward to the greek speakers analysis on this, for I am increasingly disenchanted with english translations and what I have presented is only as good as my source.

One thing bothers me in this passage- the modification he suggests for the right shoulder of the Thorax. I would not have thought that the throwing motion was not so dissimilar from the overhand stab of the hoplite.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paullus wrote:
In all the works of Xenophon,he never, not even once, refers to Greeks wearing linen corselets - only Asiatics. Does that not strike anyone else as odd ?
The only time Greek authors describe scale armour is when barbarians wear it. But we know they used it from art and archaeological finds. Without those finds (and without any sculptures with a scale pattern carved on them), I could use your logic to 'prove' that the Greeks never used scale armour and merely liked painting scale patterns on other objects.

...uuu..mmm.. what 'logic'? Nothing is argued here, merely an observation made.

Right now we don't know what any people called armour with this cut, or what it was made from. I call it 'linothorax' because tube-and-yoke cuirass doesn't feel like a good description .....The 'linothorax' cut was used for every type of armour possible (plate, mail, scale, organic materials, combinations of the above).

......as you have just said...a very good reason for not calling armour of this type 'linothorax'.
Calling it that is merely perpetuating an obvious error !! Worse still, use of the term colours any discussion, and so should not be used for that reason alone......

If a scale armour with this cut would have been called a spolas, then you have admitted that spolades could be made from materials other than hide.

A garment of leather ( or linen!) re-inforced with some other material, would still be called by its original name e.g. spolades or thorakes lineoi

See the "Leather Cuirass?" thread for examples

That's it ?
There are no other types of armour depicted unequivcally in the items on that thread. If that's your best argument, then it is no argument at all. :o

I don't think you are open to persuasion

...so it is I who must be "persuaded", is it ? D lol: Why ? Because I have suggested a heresy ? Why not you? If at times I have seemed ardent in defending my views, it is because I have had to defend them against many ! People now think (wrongly) that I believe all Hoplite armour was leather, which I don't necessarily, but I was put into a defensive position.
I began by believing from secondary sources in a 'linen tube-and-yoke' corselet being worn by classical greek hoplites, but examination of Xenophon and then other sources has led me to doubt that assumption. It turns out that there is little or no convincing evidence of such a thing, and much, such as Xenophon to suggest there may not. And to suggest that a fragment of a poet,(it could have been a poem about the Trojan war, for all anyone knows !) who can apparently see into the future is as good evidence as a whole body of work from a general who was there....... well, that is simply not credible. As I have said before, evidence should be weighed not just counted.
In any event, as I have repeatedly said, I am self-evidently open to "persuasion", I just need some credible evidence.........

[Paullus Scipio]

There is a wealth of knowledge in those couple of paragraphs. He mentions that leather should be used to protect under the right arm, so leather obviously is considered a possible element in armor.

...true! While he goes into considerable detail about what his ideal cavalryman should have as equipment, the only two materials he mentions are "leather/calfskin or metal" (Art of Horsemanship XII.7)

One thing bothers me in this passage- the modification he suggests for the right shoulder of the Thorax. I would not have thought that the throwing motion was not so dissimilar from the overhand stab of the hoplite.

I think that you will find he is advocating the Persian leather tubular arm-bands ( he refers to its flexibility) for the 'bridle-hand' ( left) which goes all the way to the shoulder, but is suggesting that this would hamper a throw, so he advocates a 'free' shoulder, protected by pteryges which can 'open and close' ( i.e. like the Hoplite who must raise his spear)while for the right forearm he advocates armour 'like a greave' (c.f. cromwellian troopers! ) rather than the tubular sleeve bound onto the thorakes . He then goes on to say that the armpit, when the right arm is raised should be protected by "leather or metal".

The quilted saddle blanket evidently hangs down at the sides to protect the horse's belly/sides from missiles.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

And what are the greek words for "quilted saddle blanket"?I don't have "About Horsemanship"-and i should buy it as soon as pissible!
Khaire

[geala]

Paul, I think the greatest hindrance to accept only leather as a material for tube-and-yoke armour, is Alkaios. I don't have fragment 57 myself and cannot find it in the I-net. Perhaps someone has it available? (I have these informations from a German thesis about hoplite warfare.)

Alkaios lived probably from 630/20 to 580 BC, so is not totally 7th c.. He seemingly said about himself that he participated in a hoplite battle and he gives a list of hoplite equipment; part of the equipment are the "thorrakkes...neo lino". It is not very probable that he spoke about Asian armour.

So the last great question is the date 520 BC. Are you sure that before this date no reference for tube-and-yoke armour exists? I will have a look although it's a bit an early time for my point of interest.
But even if the new armour appeared only after 520 BC in paintings, that would not contradict Alkaios (a first rate source!; I know, you value original sources very high, why not this?). If a new cuirass was introduced in the eastern progressive parts of the Greek world, it is possible that some time had to go before the artists became aware of it.

[PMBardunias]

Giannis, here's the transliterated greek from Perseus:

XII. grapsai de boulometha kai hôs dei hôplisthai ton mellonta eph' hippou kinduneuein. prôton men toinun phamen chrênai pros to sôma ton thôraka pepoiêsthai. ton men gar kalôs harmottonta [ekeinon] pherei to sôma, ton de agan chalaron hoi ômoi monoi pherousin. ho ge mên lian stenos desmos, ouch hoplon estin. [2] epei de kai ho auchên esti tôn kairiôn, phamen chrênai kai toutôi ex autou tou thôrakos homoion tôi aucheni stegasma pepoiêsthai. touto gar hama kosmon te parexei kai, ên hoion dei eirgasmenon êi, dexetai hotan boulêtai tôi anabatêi to prosôpon mechri tês rhinos. [3] kranos ge mên kratiston einai nomizomen to boiôtiourges: touto gar au stegazei malista panta ta huperechonta tou thôrakos, horan de ou kôluei. ho d' au thôrax houtôs eirgasthô hôs mê kôluein mête kathizein mêt' epikuptein. [4] ta de peri to êtron kai ta aidoia [kai ta] kuklôi hai pteruges tosautai kai toiautai estôsan hôste stegein ta belê. [5] epei de kai hê aristera cheir ên ti pathêi, kataluei ton hippea, kai tautêi epainoumen to hêurêmenon hoplon tên cheira kaloumenên. ton te gar ômon skepazei kai ton brachiona kai ton pêchun kai to echomenon tôn hêniôn, kai ekteinetai de kai sunkamptetai: pros de toutois kai to dialeipon tou thôrakos hupo têi maschalêi kaluptei. [6] tên ge mên dexian epairein dei, ên te akontisai ên te pataxai boulêthêi. tou men dê thôrakos to kôluon tautêi aphaireteon: anti de toutou pterugas en tois ginglumois prostheteon hopôs, hotan men diairêtai, homoiôs anaptussôntai, hotan de katairêtai, epikleiôntai. [7] tôi ge mên brachioni to hôsper knêmis paratithemenon beltion hêmin dokei einai ê sundethen hoplôi. to ge mên psiloumenon airomenês tês dexias stegasteon engus tou thôrakos ê moscheiôi ê chalkeiôi: ei de mê, en tôi epikairotatôi aphulakton estai.

[8] epei d' ênper ti paschêi ho hippos, en panti kindunou kai ho anabatês gignetai, hoplizein dei kai ton hippon prometôpidiôi kai prosternidiôi kai paramêridiois: tauta gar hama kai tôi anabatêi paramêridia gignetai. pantôn de malista tou hippou ton keneôna dei skepazein: kairiôtaton gar on kai aphaurotaton esti: dunaton de sun tôi ephippiôi kai auton skepasai. [9] chrê de kai to epochon toiouton erraphthai hôs asphalesteron te ton hippea kathêsthai kai tên hedran tou hippou mê sinesthai. kai ta men dê alla houtô kai ho hippos kai ho hippeus hôplismenoi an eien. [10] knêmai de kai podes huperechoien men an eikotôs tôn paramêridiôn, hoplistheiê d' an kai tauta, ei embades genointo skutous, ex houper hai krêpides poiountai: houtô gar an hama hoplon te knêmais kai posin hupodêmat' an eiê.

[11] hôs men dê mê blaptesthai theôn hileôn ontôn tauta hopla. hôs de tous enantious blaptein, machairan men mallon ê xiphos epainoumen: eph' hupsêlou gar onti tôi hippei kopidos mallon hê plêgê ê xiphous arkesei. [12] anti ge mên doratos kamakinou, epeidê kai asthenes kai dusphoron esti, ta kraneïna duo palta mallon epainoumen. kai gar exapheinai to heteron dunaton tôi epistamenôi, kai tôi leipomenôi hoion te chrêsthai kai eis to antion kai eis ta plagia kai eis toupisthen: kai hama ischurotera te tou doratos kai euphorôtera estin.

[PMBardunias]

I think that you will find he is advocating the Persian leather tubular arm-bands ( he refers to its flexibility) for the 'bridle-hand' ( left) which goes all the way to the shoulder, but is suggesting that this would hamper a throw, so he advocates a 'free' shoulder

I seem to recall discussing this a while back on another list and someone produced images of metal thoraxes with altered right shoulder openings. I'll hunt it down. My real issue was what is so different about throwing the javelin as opposed to the manner in which hoplites stab.

While reading Xenophon I think I answered my own question.

For the skillful man may throw the one and can use the other in front or on either side or behind.

If a man, in the act of advancing his left side, drawing back his right, and rising from his thighs, discharges the javelin with its point a little upwards, he will give his weapon the strongest impetus and the furthest carrying power

The answer is in the fact that a greater range of motion is expected of the horseman. Not a simple forward or downward thrust, but attacks to any quarter. Also, when throwing he turns his left shoulder forwardand the right arm must now have even more range of motion to throw across his body.

You will note that many advocate the left shoulder forward stance for fighting hoplites. This is surely seen on a majority of images and had been erroneously invoked to describe how the aspis can protect the whole body at once. What is lost in the static image is that the shoulders square as he strikes- he does not try to jab around his head. One author likened his stance to a fencer, inexplicably since the fencer's weapon is in the fore-hand (a fencer with dagger or buckler in the left hand would be a better model and they have a different stance).

The need to modify the thorax to strike across your body axis would seem to indicate that this did not happen in normal hoplite combat.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is the paragraph about horse armour:

[8] epei d' ênper ti paschêi ho hippos, en panti kindunou kai ho anabatês gignetai, hoplizein dei kai ton hippon prometôpidiôi kai prosternidiôi kai paramêridiois: tauta gar hama kai tôi anabatêi paramêridia gignetai. pantôn de malista tou hippou ton keneôna dei skepazein: kairiôtaton gar on kai aphaurotaton esti: dunaton de sun tôi ephippiôi kai auton skepasai. [9] chrê de kai to epochon toiouton erraphthai hôs asphalesteron te ton hippea kathêsthai kai tên hedran tou hippou mê sinesthai. kai ta men dê alla houtô kai ho hippos kai ho hippeus hôplismenoi an eien. [10] knêmai de kai podes huperechoien men an eikotôs tôn paramêridiôn, hoplistheiê d' an kai tauta, ei embades genointo skutous, ex houper hai krêpides poiountai: houtô gar an hama hoplon te knêmais kai posin hupodêmat' an eiê.

There is no mention that I see about quilted blanket.
The shoulder flap,no matter how thin it is(in the borders of it looking like a linothorax)in any case is a discomfort,and when throwing a javelin you need to be as comfortable as possible.Also the movement is very violent,and the right shoulder(or mostly the neck)can be ingured in that violent movement.I found that from my linothorax.
About the lefta arm guard.He says that it opens and closes

kai ekteinetai de kai sunkamptetai

which means the material is not flexible but the structure is such that allows this movement.It reminds me of later Hellenistic arm guards,or gladiators' armour.Could he have seen such thing in Persian cavalry at that time?
He is speaking of pteryges in thorakes and he is not speaking of metal cuirasses.He mentions guard for the "auchena" the back part of the neck and this reminds me the linothorax.Also of shoulder protection that opens and closes.And he indeed believes that the pteryges can be of different matterials(this would be more understandable if he is talking about bronze cuirasses,where the pteryges are added separately).And in sculptures of Xenophon's times(parthenon) the majority of armoured hipeis are wearing a linothorax(or tube and yoke thorax,if you like).In fact there I have seen at least 4 hippeis with linothorax and one with short muscle cuirass.If this is anything to be considered at all.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Here's the translation if it helps you see where they got the notion of quilting from:

8] Since the rider is seriously imperilled in the event of his horse being wounded, the horse also should be armed, having head, chest, and thigh pieces: the last also serve to cover the rider's thighs. But above all the horse's belly must be protected; for this, which is the most vital part, is also the weakest. It is possible to make the cloth serve partly as a protection to it. [9] The quilting of the cloth should be such as to give the rider a safer seat and not to gall the horse's back.

He mentions guard for the "auchena" the back part of the neck and this reminds me the linothorax.

The fact that it protects the riders face makes the combination of Boetian helm and neck guard seem like a medieval sallet and bevour. There are many images of steppe peoples of later dates with high collars, but this sounds almost like the collar of a Mycenaean armor. I agree that the arm guards are most likely bands of metal- otherwise the metal armpit guard would offer more protection than that given the arm, which is unlikely.

Odd that there are no images of this, unless it is like De Saxe's work and what he recommends is so idealized that it will not be found in service in any numbers.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Right.The word "aphaurotaton" may mean bulky.
And

"erraphthai hôs asphalesteron te ton hippea kathêsthai kai tên hedran tou hippou mê sinesthai"

means that you have to sew this thing for the safety of the cavalryman's sit,and for the rest of the phrase I'm not sure.I don't know what is the exact translation of the word "edra" which in modern greek means table.

[Paullus Scipio]

The fact that it protects the riders face makes the combination of Boetian helm and neck guard seem like a medieval sallet and bevour

...that is pretty much correct - Xenophon speaks of the neck guard coming up to the nose. Neck-guards of this type are known from tomb finds, including one found in grave 'B' at Derveni in Makedonia, made of leather covered in bronze scales c.350 B.C.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

No,Paullus,i've seen thin in person.It no way comes to the nose.And it's considerably small(with tiny scales)