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Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores
#31
If we accept that a legion under Diocletian was around the 6000 man mark, and by 500AD a legion was between 1400-1700 men strong (if using the evidence from the Perge fragments), then it may be plausible for the legions to have been split into three approximately 2000 strong legions under Constantine, which over time may have come down to the legion size described in the Perge fragments.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#32
(03-04-2016, 11:49 AM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: If we accept that a legion under Diocletian was around the 6000 man mark, and by 500AD a legion was between 1400-1700 men strong (if using the evidence from the Perge fragments), then it may be plausible for the legions to have been split into three approximately 2000 strong legions under Constantine, which over time may have come down to the legion size described in the Perge fragments.

Except you need to add to the 6,000 iuniores the 1,200 seniores in the tribal system and then divide by three.
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#33
(03-04-2016, 03:50 AM)Steven James Wrote: I once tried to count the number of iuniores units to seniores units in the ND to see if I could find a relationship with the ratio with the ratio of iuniores and seniores in the tribal system, but the translation of the ND I used was not clear on identifying some units as iuniores or seniores. This could be the way the ND was written. So I could not come to any conclusion.

Were you using William Fairley's translation? The Latin text can be found online in The Latin Library here:
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/notitia.html
You may find that more helpful.

Alternatively, Otto Seeck's edition can be found here:
https://archive.org/stream/notitiadignit...5/mode/2up
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#34
(03-04-2016, 03:50 AM)Steven James Wrote: the translation of the ND I used was not clear on identifying some units as iuniores or seniores.

Only about half the units listed in the ND are either seniores or iuniores - the other half have only the single name. This, I would think, is further suggestion that the distinction was not the result of a single empire-wide policy but rather of an occasional doubling of certain units, perhaps at various times; either (and I accept the points raised above!) by raising a new unit, perhaps using a cadre of men from the 'senior' formation, or by drawing a new 'junior' draft from the original legion that had provided the 'senior' detachment.


(03-03-2016, 02:20 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: In case of the former I'd expect not 'iuniores' but perhaps 'secundani' etc.

Well, yes - but we already have a unit called Secundani, and another called Primani... that would lead to the Primani Primani, and the Secundani Secundani, which would be arcane even by the standards of Roman nomenclature! [Image: smile.png]
Nathan Ross
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#35
Could it be possible that the term prior and posterior centuries were changed to iuniores and seniores?  So if a legion numbered 2400 men, it consisted of 1,200 iuniores (old prior centuries), and 1,200 seniores (old posterior centuries).
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#36
I have found a very enigmatic statement from Maurus Servius Honoratus:

Servius, In Vergilii Georgicis comentarii, 1, 43; 8 (auctor fl.c.400AD)

                Aprilis vero dictus est, quasi terras tepore aperiens; Maius a Maia; Iunius a Iunone, quamquam alii a maioribus et iunioribus hos duos menses velint esse nominatos: nam antea populus Romanus in centurias iuniorum et seniorum divisus fuerat.

Could this be translated as: “previously the Roman People have been divided into centuries of iuniores and seniores?”

What are the centuries? Army centuries, voting centuries or something else???

Does this mean that in Servius’ timeframe (4th-5th century AD) the Romans are not anymore divided into iuniores seniores centuries?
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#37
Julian wrote:

What are the centuries? Army centuries, voting centuries or something else???
 
They are tribal centuries, which also function as voting centuries and military centuries. They are one and the same.
 
Julian wrote:
Does this mean that in Servius’ timeframe (4th-5th century AD) the Romans are not anymore divided into iuniores seniores centuries?
 
My conclusion is Constantine abolished the Roman tribal system. Ammianus talks about it in a past tense.
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#38
Julian DeVries posted these references on another posting some time back, which raise some questions, like Seniors for the year 243 AD:
 
Chronicon Paschale: pp. 501.3 – 504.6:
 
Indiction 4 (AD 243). (Year) 3. Consuls: Aurelianus (sic, PIR2 A 635) and Pappus (PIR2 C 684). Gordianus (III) Augustus made a unit (arithmon) of those called Candidates, having elevated them by selection as mature, strong, and of magnificent appearance, from the formation (tagmatos) of those called Scholarii, having called the school of the same unit (arithmou) “Seniors” in his own name. These are those of the sixth school.
 
Indiction 11 (AD 250). (Year) 4. Consuls: Decius (PIR2 M 520) and Gratianus (sic, PIR2 V 328) The sovereign Philippus, together with his son Philippus, constituted a unit (arithmon) of those called Candidates, elevating chosen young men from the Scholarii, having called the school of the formation (tagmatos) they constituted “Juniors,” by the name of Philippus, the father. These are those of the Sixth School.
 
Also what is meant by the “Sixth School?” Can anyone shed some light on this?
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#39
(10-08-2020, 03:30 PM)Steven James Wrote: Can anyone shed some light on this?

Not a great deal, I'm afraid. The author of the Chronicon seems be backdating to the mid 3rd century the formation of the Candidati close-protection unit from picked men of the Scholae Palatina; both Candidati and Scholae are more conventionally dated to the 4th century.

Several of the Scholae units listed in the Notitia Dignitatum are numbered - Schola scutariorum prima, for example, or Schola scutatorium tertia. The last note in this Chronicon entry suggests the existence of a Schola Sexta at some point. Whether this was a real unit, or the Chronicon writer has just assumed that it existed, we cannot know.

Similarly, several scholae were distinguished by the title seniores or iuniores, just like other late Roman army units. The Schola armaturarum seniorum and Schola gentilium seniorum are in the west, while the Schola armaturarum iuniorum and Schola gentilium iuniorum (and a duplicate Schola gentilium seniorum, just to confuse things) are in the east.

Why the Chronicon writer thought these titles were derived from the names of the emperors Gordianus and Philippus is obscure. The whole thing sounds like an invented etymology to explain the titles of various units found in the 6th-7th century, with which the Chronicon writer will have been familiar.
Nathan Ross
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#40
Nathan, thank you for your informative response. Unfortunately, many on RAT nowadays do not have the decency to publicly thank those who responded to their questions, which is a shame.
 
Nathan wrote:
The author of the Chronicon seems be backdating to the mid 3rd century the formation of the Candidati close-protection unit from picked men of the Scholae Palatina; both Candidati and Scholae are more conventionally dated to the 4th century.
 
Well that is comforting to know and most likely the correct explanation. Julian DeVries has provided me with information of another translation of the Chronicon being undertaken in Australia, so I will be making a few phone calls to those concerned in relation to these passages.
 
Nathan wrote:
The last note in this Chronicon entry suggests the existence of a Schola Sexta at some point. Whether this was a real unit, or the Chronicon writer has just assumed that it existed, we cannot know.
 
You make a very good point and one to take into consideration. On the Late Roman Army thread, I posted that the seniores were a mathematical element, meaning they were part of a mathematical set. In relation to their military organization I have found the seniores represent one sixth of a set of six.
 
Florus has Augustus born in the fourth age, and using Biblical data, I find that Diocletian comes to power in the sixth age. Saint Augustine (The City of God Book 22 Chapter 30) wrote that “the sixth age is now passing, and cannot be measured by any number of generations, as it has been said; it is not for you to know the times, which the Father has put in his own power.”
 
I believe the Sixth School mention by the Chronicon might relate to the sixth age. According to my calculations, Gordianus and Philippus belong to the fifth age.
 
For me, everything still points to the military units of seniores being created during the reign of Diocletian.
 
Steven
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#41
It has been many years ago I found this reference, so I have to refresh my memory. What we need is to find those references and write them down in English and also the original Greek text.

The reference of the Chronicon Paschale I found in this book: “The History of Zonaras: From Alexander Severus to the Death of Theodosius the Great (Routledge Classical Translations) by Thomas Banchich, Eugene Lane.”

There is a translation of the Chronicon Paschale: “Chronicon Paschale 284-628 (Translated Texts for Historians Liverpool University Press) by Michael Whitby, Mary Whitby.”

This translation is not useful since the reference in question is before the year 284.

The Original Greek (+Latin translation) in Migne:
https://books.google.nl/books?id=7qEcpMZ...&q&f=false

Gordian III = page 661-662
Philip = page 665-666

Gordian III:
Looking at the notes there is indeed another version of this event in the History of Cedrenus. There also I think seems to be yet another version of the event in the history of George Hamartolos the Monk.

Philip:
Observe! There is a difference in translation. According to Bachrich and Lane it is the Sixth School. But according to the original Greek (and Latin) it is the Seventh School.
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#42
Julian wrote:
Philip: Observe! There is a difference in translation. According to Bachrich and Lane it is the Sixth School. But according to the original Greek (and Latin) it is the Seventh School.
 
Unfortunately, for me, a Seventh School does not disprove that “School” could be referring to a period of time. In his six ages of the world and the creation of the world in seven days, Saint Augustine defines the ages as in the following order:
 
1st Age        1st Day          Infancy (Adam to Noah)
2nd Age       2nd Day         Childhood (Noah to Abraham)
3rd Age        3rd Day          Puberty (Abraham to David)
4th Age        4th Day          Advanced Youth (David to the captivity)
5th Age        5th Day          Captivity to the birth of Jesus
6th Age        6th Day          in its own procession
7th Age        7th Day          Sabbath
 
The only other civilization besides the Hebrews that describes its growth in the life of a man is Rome (Rome’s infancy, Rome’s youth, Rome’s manhood and Rome’s old age), as explained by Florus, Ammianus, and Senaca.
 
In 401 AD, Claudian relates that after cutting open two wolfs that attacked the emperor’s cavalry escort, who at the time was accompanied by the Roman general Stilicho: “In each animal, on its being cut open, was found a human hand, in the stomach of one a left hand, in that of the other a right was discovered, both still twitching, the fingers stretched out and suffused with living blood.”
 
One interpretation of the omen as given by Claudian believed that the might of Roman was to be unimpaired. However, another interpretation believed the portent threatened destruction on Rome and her empire. Claudian goes on to say: “then they reckoned up the years and, cutting off the flight of the twelfth vulture, tried to shorten the centuries of Rome's existence by hastening the end.”
 
Censorinus writes that Rome would be protected by the gods for 1,200 years. Here Claudian highlights the fact that the Romans were acutely aware of the prophecy that the pagan god’s protection over Rome was coming to an end. The 12 vultures (as seen by Romulus) when divided by Censorinus’ 1,200 years produces 12 centuries of 100 years. Claudian appears to be aware that there are a few conflicting dates for Rome’s demise as a man, leaving the possibility the Chronicon Paschale has fixed the sixth school, that is if “school” does in fact represents time, to the emperors Gordianus and Philippus by using another calendar using different period of time and ages.
 
Saint Augustine allocates five of the six ages as having 62 generations.
 
1st Age          Infancy                     10 generations
2nd Age          Childhood                 10 generations
3rd Age          Puberty                     14 generations
4th Age          Advanced Youth      14 generations
5th Age          Captivity                   14 generations
6th Age          Ongoing                     ? generations
 
I think the author of the Chronicon Paschale made have made a mathematical calculation to arrive at emperors Gordianus and Philippus associated with the sixth school instead of the fifth school, presuming that is, that school is associated with time. So basically, one age out.
 
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#43
After burning the midnight oil, and relentlessly thumping the calculator, the term “school” as in the Sixth School is associated with time. Just to make life confusing for us, the Romans have three saeculum calendars. One is based on the Pythagorean tones, which gets confused as a saeculum calendar as happened in 249 BC. The second is the saeculum calendar introduced during the reign of Augustus and the third is a corruption of the Augustus saeculum calendar.
 
The author of the Chronicon Paschale has used the third saeculum calendar, which heralds Rome’s end much sooner than the Augustus saeculum calendar. By removing the last age from the third saeculum calendar produces the years as given by the Chronicon Paschale for the Scholia. That is all I had to do, and I never thought I would get to the bottom of it.
 
The Chronicon Paschale is in continuity with the actions of the emperor Diocletian. In the past, when a saeculum expired, the Romans would take the stadia of the orbit of the planets of the next saeculum in advance. For example, at the end of the second saeculum, the Romans would add to the tribes, the number of stadia the cosmos would have travelled in the third saeculum, and then divided the stadia travelled by the 35 tribes, which was then converted from stadia to men. Near the end of the fourth age, Augustus was born, and came to power at the end of the fourth age. Augustus changed the system by not adding the stadia of the fifth age to the end of the fourth age. The tribes were increased only at the end of the fifth age. This system remained in place until Diocletian, who reverted to taking the stadia in advance. This is why one age seems to disappear, and caused me havoc until now.
 
To construct the Roman army and how it would be organised, Diocletian used the tribal system for the end of the sixth age, which is the last age. Diocletian then divided the number of iuniores in each tribe by three, which would give him the capacity to create 105 legions from 35 tribes. Diocletian then did this for the seniores in each tribe and then added them to the iuniores.
 
Parts of the old legion organisation were retained and others replaced. The next litmus test is to see how the size of a legion and its various organisations stood up against all the unit numbers as provided by Ammianus etc, including the various Christian chronicles. To do this, take the legion, deploy it, and then remove detachments. So far so good with all know infantry numbers. Many of the same military doctrines are still in play, thereby creating the differing numbers. Some numbers include the seniores, others do not.
 
Applying this same principle to the cavalry does not work. Hyginus’ treaty on the Roman camp during the principate shows that a new cavalry doctrine was introduced during the principate and governed the organisation of the Late Roman cavalry. To determine the size of a cavalry squadron, deploy the legion and then create cavalry lanes. Divide the size of the cavalry lanes by five feet per horse, to determine the frontage of the squadron, albeit with a two horse clearance, which in the past has been the golden rule. With cavalry squadron frontage acquired, then determine depth, generally Pythagorean ratio of 3 to 2 (the perfect fifth) between infantry and cavalry. When this has been determined, cross reference with known primary source cavalry numbers. If rounding is within point 001 percent, run naked down the street yelling “eureka.”
 
Conclusion is, the units of iuniores and seniores, and the smaller legions were introduced by Diocletian.
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#44
Yay, more discussions about calendars and year calculations! I think Censorinus deserves a new friend:

The text and German translation found in “Origo Gentis Romanorum, Polemius Silvius, Narratio de Imperatoribus, Bruno Bleckmann / Jan-Markus Kötter, Mehran A. Nickbakht / In-Yong Song, Markus Stein, Kleine und fragmentarische Historiker der Spätantike B 5-7, 2017 Ferdinand Schöningh

(B 6) Polemius Silvius Breviarium temporum
(17) cuius regni ab urbis exordio mille et ducentis completis annis Postumiano et Zenone consulibus, Astyrio consule tamquam primus annus incipit.

(B 6) Polemius Silvius Kurzer Abriss der Geschichte
(17) Nachdem 1.200 Jahre dieser Herrschaft seit dem Anbeginn der Stadt unter dem Konsulat des Postumianus und Zeno (448 n. Chr) vollendet worden sind, beginnt unter dem Konsulat des Astyrius (449 n. Chr) gleichsam das erste Jahr.

B 6) Polemius Silvius Brief History
(17) After 1,200 years of this rule have been completed since the beginning of the city under the consulate of Postumianus and Zeno (448 A.D.), the first year begins under the consulate of Astyrius (449 A.D.).

Kommentar
mille et ducentis...annis
Von 753 v. Chr bis 448 n. Chr Der Zahl 1.200 wird gemäss dem heilsgeschichtlichen Konzept des Bibeltextes eine besondere symbolische Bedeutung beigemessen, vgl. J. Hughes, Secrets of the Times. Myth and History in Biblical Chronology, Sheffield 1990, 46-48 (s. 47 “Priestly Chronological Schematism”): “The present era of history divides into a pre-Abrahamic age lasting 1599 years and a post-Abrahamic age of 2400 years’ duration, with post-Abrahamic history subdivided into pre-temple and temple ages each lasting 1200 years.” ; ferner K. Koenen, 1200 Jahre von Abrahams Geburt bis zum Tempelbau, ZAW 126,4 (2014) 494-505.

From 753 B.C. to 448 A.D. The number 1,200 is attributed a special symbolic meaning in accordance with the salvation-historical concept of the Bible text, cf.

As extra, here is a testimonia of Polemius Silvius

Chron. Gall (452) 121 (codd. LD)

Silvius turbatae admodum mentis post militiae in palatio exacta munera aliqua de religione conscribit.

I found two translations of this text:

Version 1 in Bruno Bleckmann et all:

Völlig geisteszerrüttet verfasst Silvius nach Vollbringung seiner Dienstaufgaben am Kaiserhof einige Werke über die Religion.

After completing his duties at the imperial court, Silvius, completely disturbed, wrote several works on religion.

Version 2:
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009...s-silvius/

UPDATE: According to Traina/Cameron, “428 AD: An Ordinary Year at the End of the Roman Empire”, Polemius Silvius, a friend of important prelates in Gaul, was considered to be “mentally disturbed” (Gallic Chronicle of 452, year 438). Mommsen quotes the Latin: turbatae admodum mentis post militiae in palatio exactae munera aliqua de religione (=of very disturbed mind after some services were exacted in the palace concerning the religion of the army).
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#45
Julian wrote:
Yay, more discussions about calendars and year calculations! I think Censorinus deserves a new friend:
 
After reading the rest of your post, I am in agreement. However, without Censorinus I would never have deducted Rome was Pythagorean.
 
Julian reference:
B 6) Polemius Silvius Brief History (17) After 1,200 years of this rule have been completed since the beginning of the city under the consulate of Postumianus and Zeno (448 A.D.), the first year begins under the consulate of Astyrius (449 A.D.).
 
Absolutely brilliant Julian. Bravo, a good find. Reading your post was like being told I had won the lottery. This is the corrupt saeculum calendar Claudian is referring to which hastens the end of Rome before its time. The corrupt calendar is very dominate in late Roman history. The reason why it came into existence is even more interesting.
 
According to the Roman poet Rutilius, it was the cursed Stilicho that committed the most bitter of crimes “by betraying the Empire’s secret, and that Stilicho strove to live longer than the Roman race.” Stilicho’s knew that in 448 AD, the Romans gods could no longer protect Rome.
 
To the Romans, the movement of the Pythagorean cosmos from one planet to another planet was seen as moving from the rule of one god to another god. Pythagoras did not believe in the gods. Pythagoras believed in one god, and the movement from one planet to another was to Pythagoras, moving through the soul of the one god, with Mercury representing the mind of god. It was a monotheist system. In 181 BC, some Roman priest knew that the gods were destined to perish and tried to use this information to strike back at the Roman senate for their persecution of the Bacchanalia, of which many priest were members.
 
Julian’s reference
J. Hughes, Secrets of the Times. Myth and History in Biblical Chronology, Sheffield 1990, 46-48 (s. 47 “Priestly Chronological Schematism”): “The present era of history divides into a pre-Abrahamic age lasting 1599 years and a post-Abrahamic age of 2400 years’ duration, with post-Abrahamic history subdivided into pre-temple and temple ages each lasting 1200 years.”; ferner K. Koenen, 1200 Jahre von Abrahams Geburt bis zum Tempelbau, ZAW 126,4 (2014) 494-505.
 
And that is why all legions are in increments of 1,200 men.
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