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Leather Cuirass
Recently I saw the picture below (it is from Osprey New Vanguard "Ancient Greek Warship" p. 15), from an Attic krater of about 480.

My foto is bad, I have to explain it: if you could see something you would see the pleated chiton below the armour, a pleated false sleeve on the right arm, a plain false sleeve on the left arm.

I can only interprete it as a proof for Giannis' opinion, that the upper part of the pleated chiton could be shown plain. I don't know why the artist chose the different depiction. But it must be just one chiton because the hoplite was hardly wearing a hypothorax or thick undergarment only on his left side.

I'm still thinking that the three warriors on the first picture of Giannis wear some sort of jerkins, but many bulky plain upper parts seem just to be the strangely depicted chitons itself.
Wolfgang Zeiler
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I have found some sculptures that will put us in doubt about leather armour or undergarments.It's late sclpture,probably of the second century bc,but it shows a kind of armour looking much like some of the vases we've posted in this thread.
Forgive me but I'm going to post them here when I return to my computer,because now I'm in my hometown for summer and I'm using a 56K modem...In 20 days we'll discuss it 8)
Wolfgang,did you notice,we ended you supporting my viws and I yours :lol: :roll:
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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That is perhaps because we both had a little piece of truth in it. :wink: Reality is complicated.
I wait for your next post and hope you don't have problems with fires nearby, but it's more in the south, isn't it?
Wolfgang Zeiler
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OK,you won't have to wait 20 days!I went to an internet cafe and I can upload images in a reasonable time.
So here they are
[Image: 300884050_5d12ece899_o.jpg]
[Image: 300883940_85b28afae1_o.jpg]
Fires there were in all over Greece.In my place,too,but you're right,this year in the South they had more... :evil:
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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Where are those pieces currently exhibited? Where were they found? They look to me more like muscled cuirasses that were shown "distorted" by artists to be able to accommodate fuller body movement in art. You can see it in other contemporary Hellenistic sculpture, including, for instance, the amazonomachy frieze from the Artemision at Magnesia on the Maeander.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Strange. If the leather would be hard and thick enough to present the human body in the way depicted, it could hardly bent as shown in the shoulder area. Not without big pleats at least. So for me even leather would not explain the kind of the cuirass. When I look at the clumsy limbs, feet and shoes, I would say it was an artist not so well abled. So perhaps he just wanted to show a bronze muscle cuirass?
Wolfgang Zeiler
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Is it another variant example of the armour being one with the man, as seen in sculpture where the armour was simply painted onto the torso, regardless of the material?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Quote:Is it another variant example of the armour being one with the man, as seen in sculpture where the armour was simply painted onto the torso, regardless of the material?

I think it is just a concession in realism made by the artist in order to be able to depict the heroic warriors in extremis. Stiff figures are of course not as visually appealing or dramatic as those stretching and reaching widely, and so the artist just fudged the armour a bit to allow it.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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