Ars Dimicandi about european Reenactment in german news

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Ars dimicandi have good things and bad things.

In the good things, some good research in roman fighting techniques. Or the system of replacing soldiers in battle at a centurio's order...etc

In the bad things, they shows a lack of respect about the work made for the other reenactors, and a obsessive tendence to get only the roman artistic depictions as a guide, and to forgot any arqueological evidence. Or even the artistics depictions out of the Italian country.

The obsesion for the leather segmentatas is a probe of that, and probably links with a very old italian traditional pont of view as how should have been a roman soldier. A tradition that probably begins at the XIV century, wit the Rinascimiento.

But, boys, now we are at XXI century, and have a lot of more information and research that our ancestors. :lol:

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Well said,Cesar

[FAVENTIANVS]

I have never understood the obsession with leather armor. It just doesn't work.

Except the leather lamellar found at Dura Europos, of course... :wink:

[Susanna]

"the system of replacing soldiers in battle at a centurio's order"

sorry, much doubt about that...the Latin Text they take as the resource is translated wrong and I do not think that system works in a real battle. :?

[Tib. Gabinius]

I agree Susanna, if that would be the good sides on ars they still arent good.
To small shields in colours staying on your shield if you ve a contact and the habit to hit with the lowerside of the shield for the enemy, which leads stante pede to a hit under their shoulder or lower body...

They do a great job of entertaining the people and are really good in presenting themselves. And the have impressiv ressources (people and power). But the way of science isnt theirs.

So its still just sad. Like i said before, nothing against constructive critics, but they have to been told at the right place in the right words to the who be ment.
And it should always start with a good self reflexion. Everybody should know his own faults and problems first, and then start to get an eye to others.

[Robert Vermaat]

"the system of replacing soldiers in battle at a centurio's order"
sorry, much doubt about that...the Latin Text they take as the resource is translated wrong and I do not think that system works in a real battle. :?

@Susanna: I agree with that!

So its still just sad. Like i said before, nothing against constructive critics, but they have to been told at the right place in the right words to the who be ment.
And it should always start with a good self reflexion. Everybody should know his own faults and problems first, and then start to get an eye to others.

@ Tobias: Indeed.
Do you think they might want to engage in a discussion here on RAT?

[Tib. Gabinius]

I cant imagine that, but i guess Luca know them better and can answer this question.
I knew them from some Events in Trier and always someone tried to discuss their theories with them and never get any result.

[Martin Moser]

Not all is lost :-) )

From the article quoted by Robert at http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=9040 , about Ars Dementicato (;-)):

"Die Kämpfe sind natürlich abgesprochen, alles folgt einem festgelegten Ablauf und ist notgedrungen plakativ. Die Show will unterhalten und das tut sie auch. Endgültig in Hollywood angekommen ist das Spektakel in der Schlusszene, die vom Titelsong des Films „Gladiator“ untermalt wird. Die Show war perfekt, sie hatte nur einen Haken: Ohne Not verkauften die Veranstalter sie als authentisch."

(Of course the fights are choreographed, everything follows a set plan and is inevitably "for effects". The show wants to entertain and so it does. In the final scene the spectacle has at last arrived at Hollywood, accompanied by the titlesong from "Gladiator". [...] The show was perfect, but there's a rub in it: without need the organizers praised it as authentic)

Not all is lost ;-) )

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

I re-read a thread from Sept here on RAT where Hephestus(of Ars??)
said definitely that nothing was staged :? I,m not savvy enough to put that post here but someone else surely will.

[Susanna]

@Martin:

der Bericht ist von hier:
http://www.chronico.de/

(thats the original text, German only, sorry)

[Luca]

Well,

basically I agree with the opinion of all here. I'm pleased to see that the "feeling" we have about the work of AD is more or less the same of yours.

"the system of replacing soldiers in battle at a centurio's order"
sorry, much doubt about that...the Latin Text they take as the resource is translated wrong and I do not think that system works in a real battle.

not only, not only, you cannot image the big discussion we had in Italy about that!

They do a great job of entertaining the people and are really good in presenting themselves. And the have impressiv ressources (people and power). But the way of science isnt theirs.

etc.

I believe during last spring one of them was on RAT, at least as reader, becuse it is normal for them retrieve information from the forums and then write the "discoveries" on their magazine.
As you can see now they have discovered the greek "segmentata" so they have put it in their home page like a new discovery.

I have very often requested them to discuss with others outside Italy of their theories and they have found someone in Spain that basically agrees with their theories. So "end" of discussions.

For Tarbicus: thanks! But someone believes it! I have read it on their internal forum.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

(quote)
"Salvete,
is astounded that you have interpreted the combats of Ars Dimicandi like “choreographiesâ€

[Tib. Gabinius]

Luca, you are not alone

Andy, as far as i was able to see in Trier, they really had no choreo of their fights in themselves, they hit the other several times, and those who stay at the ground at least loose.

But the way they do their roman military is pure chorei, like you can see in their videos which demonstrate their "rotating romans" theory. The celts stop the heavy attack while the rotation.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Hello at all!

I'm supporter to the replacing soldiers in battle for many points. I'm talking about this theorical constructions with Ars Dimicandi. We exchanged sources (yes, there is...) and if we are not completly agree on all the points, they don't absolutely refuse the discussion and have an excellent knowledge. So, it is true that the ars dimicandi reenactment options are sometimes strange, I admits it. But we should not denigrate either their work, I don't know a lot who also works to this aspect of the research.

For my part it is the inverse idea which shocks me. How can we imagine that the men cannot take turns in the fight inside the battle lines? While it is impossible to fight in first battle front line more than three minutes in complete armor?

[Tib. Gabinius]

Ars Dimicandi gave the answer themselves.
Take a look at the first minuts of the first part of the series Rome.
Mix the scene with the jumping celt and the "exchanging" soldiers.

And by the way, Caesars men weared two cingula and no balteus...
And i m very interested in the sources you have for the exanchange either the Sallustius passage. But plz per pm to get the off topic out of this topic.