Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc)

[Matthew Amt]

Tenth century Welsh havey horsemen were armed with swords and javelins, and protected by mail a medium-sized shield, and a helmet. Sounds similar to what we've been theorizing about. Is this a throwback to the fifth century?

Not necessarily. It's just a good working combination. You see the same sort of thing on some 19th century Afghan tribesmen, after all. (And it's pretty much what I theorized for Post-Roman cavalry about 40 pages back!)

Aparrently the favoured tunic colour of the welsh cavalry was red, does that mean anything?

Probably just a fashion. I've heard about the red tunics before, too. In Scotland or Ireland you get yellow tunics instead. Just a local custom, and it's not necessarily universal or some sort of law. Compare modern jeans--blue, right? Yet you *can* find them in black, tan, brown, purple, green, etc. We just think of them as "blue jeans", and blue is clearly the most common color, simply by custom.

Matthew

[ArthuroftheBritons]

Ok, so it looks like we've finally hit the wall with the cavalry. Fine with me, now my question is how did Welsh archery get started? Did it have its origins in this time period?

[Ron Andrea]

What aspect of "welsh archery"? I suspect they used bows and arrows long before the Romans left--or came, for that matter.

[M. Demetrius]

Surely this change must indicate a new thread topic?

[Conal]

Surely this change must indicate a new thread topic?

Blasphemer, thread denyer... this thread is now an official religion :roll: ...all dissenters will be excommunicated from this thread hock:

[Ron Andrea]

We did that--change thread subjects--when we redefined this away from sub-Roman cavalry in Britain. My interest in starting this thread was discovering all aspects of military organization, training and equipage in sub-Roman Britain. The cavalry just seemed a logical starting point because of certain written references (Gildas and Y Goddodin) and its relevance to him-who-can-not-be-named (who also got discussed here . . . a lot). :wink:

I'm happy to go whereever people know something about sub-Roman military issues because I know so little but need to know more.

[Robert Vermaat]

Surely this change must indicate a new thread topic?

Blasphemer, thread denyer... this thread is now an official religion :roll: ...all dissenters will be excommunicated from this thread hock:

No, I agree. This thread is there for some sub-Roman sub-threads, but not for all. Welsh archery is, afaik, Medieval stuff, and if there's no Roman angle, not for this forum. Either start one on Roman archery elsewhere, one on pre-Roman British archery here, or discontinue this one.

Sorry guys. Some threads can go on for too long.

[ArthuroftheBritons]

Oh well, I figured it would be a good topic. I mean, it didn't just appear out of nowhere, and most things about the Welsh military started in this era so I'm wondering if the Welsh longbow did as well. Could it have been inspired by some kind of Roman bow?

[Robert Vermaat]

Oh well, I figured it would be a good topic. I mean, it didn't just appear out of nowhere, and most things about the Welsh military started in this era so I'm wondering if the Welsh longbow did as well. Could it have been inspired by some kind of Roman bow?

I doubt very much that 'most things about the Welsh military' started in the Roman period.
Longbows are OT as long as no-one comes forward with a direct link between Roman bows and Welsh longbows.

[Medicus matt]

Oh well, I figured it would be a good topic. I mean, it didn't just appear out of nowhere, and most things about the Welsh military started in this era so I'm wondering if the Welsh longbow did as well. Could it have been inspired by some kind of Roman bow?

I doubt very much that 'most things about the Welsh military' started in the Roman period.
Longbows are OT as long as no-one comes forward with a direct link between Roman bows and Welsh longbows.

It's heresy to even mention it this close to the Welsh border but I think that the earliest examples of single D-section/sub round section 'longbows' are those found in the late iron age/migration period Danish bogs and suspect that they were introduced into the country by northern Germanic forces.

It's an interesting topic in it's own right but not one for a Roman military forum I would have thought.

[ArthuroftheBritons]

*shrugs* It was worth a shot, but I do have a topic which will eventually link back to the cavalry. Sub-Roman British infantry. How Roman were they? How Celtic were they? What tactics did they use? What weapons and armour? And how did they work in conjunction with Sub-Roman British cavalry. There, I daresay that'll bring us full circle. Once we've figured out all this stuff about infantry, we can move onto tactics of Sub-Roman British armies; which would be easier with a knowledge of both the cavalry and the infantry. So if you wouldn't mind this is sort of my plan for the topic if nothing goes wrong or we don't make interesting turns, which considering the history of this thread we probably will.

[Felix]

ArthuroftheBritons wrote:
Tenth century Welsh havey horsemen were armed with swords and javelins, and protected by mail a medium-sized shield, and a helmet. Sounds similar to what we've been theorizing about

Incidentally, this is the standard gear of the native medieval Irish horsemen; not the Anglo-Irish or English knights. The native chieftans continued to use this panoply in warfare up into the 16th century. Their war parties generally consisted of large numbers of light armed foot (kerns) with a nucleus of heavy armed foot (gallowglasses), and the elite were mounted.

[Astiryu1]

Wouldn't there be more period descriptions of tactics as opposed to panoply for armies? I think that you could make a fair assumption (backed with archeological evidence) of what they wore by how they fought. But that's just my opinion...

[Felix]

Continuing the tangent I noted above, the methods of warfare practiced by the native Irish in the Middle Ages were well documented by their English and Anglo-Irish enemies. See: http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/p ... eirigh.pdf

This kind of frontier warfare may be more relevant to post-Roman Britain than might seem at first sight. In both cases, two different cultures existed for substantial lengths of time side by side, before the gradual imbalance of power finally led to the defeat of one culture. Frontier raiding might constitute a lot of the warfare, with only rare grand battles which a chronicler would note.

[Matthew Amt]

*shrugs* It was worth a shot, but I do have a topic which will eventually link back to the cavalry. Sub-Roman British infantry. How Roman were they? How Celtic were they? What tactics did they use? What weapons and armour? And how did they work in conjunction with Sub-Roman British cavalry. There, I daresay that'll bring us full circle. Once we've figured out all this stuff about infantry, we can move onto tactics of Sub-Roman British armies; which would be easier with a knowledge of both the cavalry and the infantry. So if you wouldn't mind this is sort of my plan for the topic if nothing goes wrong or we don't make interesting turns, which considering the history of this thread we probably will.

A quick search for "infantry" in topic titles in this subsection turned up these two threads:

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Not surprisingly, we just don't know much! It seems safe to assume (wait for it!) shields, spears, javelins, some helmets and swords, and probably mail or scale armor for the top dogs. Axes and knives to supplement as needed. Oh, I'd guess some bows, too.

Tactics? Line up and hurt the other guys. Cavalry might be on the flank, or in front, or in back if they need to regroup behind the infantry screen. Or moving away at high speed if they've decided to flee and leave the PBI as a rearguard... (Like photographing wild bears: You don't have to be able to outrun the bear, you only have to be able to outrun your assistant!)

With so little known for certain, except for the basic fundamentals of ancient combat, I really doubt we're going to be able to "figure out" much.

Sure you don't want to just revive one of the old threads, rather than drag this one out interminably?

Matthew