Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Plate Manica
#1
Hi , Does anybody have a Photo or plan of the Back of a plate manica they could send me Please . I needto see the strapping and the way it is Tied .

Thanks ,

Pegasus .
Paul / Verus
Reply
#2
have you seen this one ?

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/manica.html
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#3
Mike Bishop's monograph on the lorica segmentata has a good section on the manica. The problem with the Legio XX Handbook's manica is, although very nice, it is worn on the outer side of the arm, whereas it should be on the inner side. Make sure the plates overlap upwards

www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_i000260.gif
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#4
Hi,

I believe that the Carlisle manica is about to go on show in Carlisle- worth hanging on until pics are available?

Cheers

Caballo
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
Reply
#5
Thanks Lads , This is Ok for now , I just wanted the Inside strapping to look at .

Thanks all ,

Pegasus .
Paul / Verus
Reply
#6
The carlisle manica is now on display, has been for a week. Though I'm afraid there will be no more enlightening info with regard to the straps/lining than has already been mentioned on the above websites
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
Reply
#7
any pictures of the carlisle manica ?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#8
I can't hand any out as I have worked drawing them and there are company confidentiality issues that I'd rather not risk even if they are on public display.

Sorry
Adam
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
Reply
#9
Understood Cry
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#10
Mike Bishop and I have had some discussions about the way that the plates on the manica are arranged. Apart from the Carlisle find, there is only one complete manica that I know of - and that comes from Leon in Spain. The plates on this quite clearly overlap upwards (Mike sent me a photo of it, which includes the plate over the back of the wrist). Mike's contention is that this allows a sword blow to be directed up into the (inside) elbow area where, because of the bending of the arm, the plates will overlap and increase the protection there.

I'm not so sure! It seems to me that this is the very last thing you would want, as a sword blow there would very likely numb the arm and cause you to drop your sword - however 'good' the protection is.

Examination of mosaics, samian pottery figures and the metopes on the Adamklissi monument all seem to suggest to me that the plates overlapped downwards - like the tiles on the roof of a house. Such an arrangement would tend to make a sword catch. In any case, protection is also effected by the thick padding that was worn beneath the armour.
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
Reply
#11
Quote:I'm not so sure! It seems to me that this is the very last thing you would want, as a sword blow there would very likely numb the arm and cause you to drop your sword - however 'good' the protection is.

But, you're gonna be hit there anyway, so surely it doesn't matter either way - numb arm regardless.

Quote:Such an arrangement would tend to make a sword catch. In any case, protection is also effected by the thick padding that was worn beneath the armour.

Such a downwards overlapping arrangement would more than likely give great opportunity for the sword point to catch and carry on straight between two plates as it skids up the manica, penetrate the padding, and stab you in your arm. More than a numb arm then, surely? :o

It's up to you I guess. Do you go by an actual item that's been found, or do you interpret artwork? I agree with Mike on this one. I wouldn't feel safe with downward plates.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#12
The Pictures of Re-enactors who wear the Plate manica ( That Ive seen ) have Downward Plates But I do understand what you mean Tarbicus about the sword point slipping under the Plates . Guess its up to the Individual .

Cheers ,

Pegasus.
Paul / Verus
Reply
#13
Carlisle and the Leon examples (and probably newstead) all overlap upwards- that is the front plate sits on top of all the following plates. The other bits of manica I have not seen or studied and wouldn't like to comment, but there is one apparently from germany which is fairly complete and does the same?

I too have talked to Mike about this a few years ago when doing some drawings. But like you Caratacus I disagree with the theory of the blow being stopped and absorbed in the crook of the arm for two reasons.

1) it wouldn't just numb but probably break your arm, armour is very rarely designed to stop or absorb blows but deflect them.

2) when you arm is bent to overlap the plates, it is withdrawn and well behind you shield, thus less exposed than almost all the other parts of your body. To be honest if I had got a blow past to the point of hitting the crook of the arm there are better areas I can think of to hit!

I don't personally think Adamklissi is clear enough to contradict 3 definate archaeological discoveries (and probably more) as I think it just shows lames in the same way many gladiatorial mosaics do- as strips. They do seem to overlap downwards, but it could be artistic convention :?

To be honest if you are cosidering deflection overlappin upwards is the only way to go as when your arm is extended any slight to medium blow that would cause severe damage to an unprotected arm would be encouraged to slide off. Any major blow that landed squarely would hack chunks out or break you arm, regardless of how you overlap the plates or padding.

Adam
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
Reply
#14
It may be worth adding that these are all battlefield infantry armour, designed to protect in the style of fighting used in that scenario. I.e lines of men punching with shields, then exposing their right arm.

If there is an example from a gladiatorial context that is different, then this could be interesting. (I don't know of any?- maybe some of the Pompeii stuff?) It would make sense to always overlap upwards like the infantry in terms of arm extension. however if one doesn't maybe it betrays a specific fighting style of the gladiator it belongs to?

For example- if a secutor has plates overlapping upwards would the retiraius's net catch, therefore would it be safer to overlap plates upwards, and risk a blade going under a plate as if you get close enough to strike then you are probably inside the trident?

Forgive my random musings! :lol:
Adam
On a cold and gray Chicago mornin\'
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghettoooooo...
(vocalist extrodinaire- Eric Cartman)
Reply
#15
Back to the Adamklissi metopes for a minute.

I'm looking at a photo of metopes No.XVIII and No.XX. Now, to my eye it's absolutely obvious that the armour plates overlap downwards. I could accept that this might be an artistic convention, but for one thing: the carvings are widely accepted as having been executed by soldiers in the field. Certainly, they are far cruder than those one sees on the Trajanic column. (This of itself creates a problem - nowhere on the Adamklissi metopes is there a hint of lorica segmentata armour being worn, but some 40% of the column shows figures wearing this type of armour - and that may well be "artistic convention". So which is the more accurate? They are certainly more or less contemporanceus).

What I'm suggesting is that the metopes are not intended as any form of artistic statement. They were a memorial made by soldiers, for soldiers. These people had a different agenda. If the armour plates overlapped the other way, why represent them so they overlap downwards? I would think that the last people to get it wrong would be those who used it in combat!

It is always possible that what the gladiator might do, a soldier might do differently. Mosaics of gladiators (such as those from North Africa) quite clearly show that there was a considerable layer of padding worn beneath the armour plates. A sword penetration between the plates would therefore encounter a thick layer of cloth - very difficult to penetrate, surely?

I do appreciate Mike Bishop's argument here. In a sense we have to go with what we have found. If there is only one example, then that is the one we have to use, pro tem. If ten others come along that go the other way, then we can modify our opinions. However, it's going from the 'particular' to the 'general' - and that isn't particular good 'science'! (Is archæology is science - discuss!)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
Reply


Forum Jump: