Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!)

[MeinPanzer]

Have you guys already seen this item?

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... uirass.JPG

That's a definite and distinct bend in the cuirass.

[Theodosius the Great]

It's new to me.

That's a definite and distinct bend in the cuirass.

Which is why I dispute that it was used as armor. I suspect it's a costume of some kind (assuming these things really existed).

Thanks for posting it, Ruben.

Too bad Travis is missing all this. He must be really busy at the moment.

~Theo

[Graham Sumner]

Dan wrote:

I have never had a problem with the existence of leather armour - even in the Roman legions. My only problem was that it was of a musculata or segmentata typology. I think we are repeating ourselves here.

I agree Dan, however it still seems that in spite of all the evidence we have presented for the existence of leather armour pre and post Roman it would appear that most people still doubt it's practicality especially when wet and in particular during the Roman period when apparently it rained all the time! :wink:

For those who think leather can not be waterproofed how do they explain away the ocean going Irish leather currachs? The other argument against leather armour is that If superior metal armour existed why would anyone wear leather? So why didn't everyone during the English civil war wear full cuirassier armour? Instead we find the leather buff coats were far more common and popular and not a cheap alternative either, some could be very expensive.

Graham.

[RUBICON]

Round and round we go!

Dont think anyone is questioning whether it existed as armour whether in battle or for show, but for its practability, appearance and ability to withstand blunt trauma or penetration..isnt this what the thread was about, not whether it existed.

As for waterproofing, its been suggested but no one has put any facts on how its done.

When someone does, let me know. I'll be a very rich man. After 15 years of riding, leather (seen by my own eyes) does not enjoy getting wet. Continued oiling helps it resist water but does not make it waterproof.

As for teh ocean going leather currachs, sure they offered protection probably due to tehir thickness but over a long period of time unless KEPT very oiled to repel water probably became brittle and dry! Maybe this is how oilskins EVOLVED!

Unfortunately this is fact based on using leather and exposing it to the elements for 15 years, fortunately Im not basing this information on 2000 year old sculptures.

So hpefully for teh last time, I agree with Dan, leather cuirass probably existed. Its functionality in battke conditions was probably better than nothing and as for metal armour it too probably had it flaws.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Don't know why, but I suddenly remember the elaborate engraving I saw on some western saddles in my youth back in Canada. Seems these would stand up to quite a rough life too, but then not having to withstand an assault with sharp weapons, they would be good for the job at hand.

[Tarbicus]

There's only one colour representation, including reconstructions from analysis, I've seen of musculata that is a possible candidate, which Stefanos posted a couple of weeks ago. However, that may have been painted to look like actual flesh IMHO. All of the others are either cupric alloy, iron, or blue+red+white. This is in sculpture and mosaics, etc. Why no brown?

[Theodosius the Great]

This looks like an interesting reconstruction of Byzantine lamellar armor. Made in the shape of a musculata, it even has 'tongue' pteruges going around the waist.

I'm temped to buy it, but I don't think they're selling anything.

~Theo

[Tarbicus]

This looks like an interesting reconstruction of Byzantine lamellar armor. Made in the shape of a musculata, it even has 'tongue' pteruges going around the waist.

I'm temped to buy it, but I don't think they're selling anything.

~Theo

Is it a reconstruction, or a custom piece based on nothing in particular?

[Theodosius the Great]

Tarbicus,

I hope it's the former. I assume it's based on something like this. Very late example, I know, but there may be earlier examples.

~Theo

[Crispvs]

"True, but I don't actually mean the musculata piece is fake, just that the owner's conviction about the helmets casts serious doubt on his ability to accurately judge the rest of his collection. That's probably why it's been discussed so little."

This might be slightly OT now for the debate at its current stage, but I would put the pugiones on his site into the same catagory as the helmets, just in case anyone is interested.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

I assume it's based on something like this. Very late example, I know, but there may be earlier examples.

Theo, is that leather? It looks gold or cupric.

[Theodosius the Great]

You're right it looks like gold (or bronze ?). I just picked it because the design looks similar to the leather reproduction.

Btw, the link seems to be broken now. :?

Well, it's the famous mosaic or fresco of Byzantine Emperor Basil II.

~Theo

[brennivs - tony drake]

Theodosivs, no I dont wear a subarmalis but you could.To my knowledge leather in the ancient world was a time cosuming item to produce and expensive ,hence items found are made of raw hide .Mine is made from scrap pieces I had in my workshop, which at todays prices would make it expensive to make.Iron on the other hand,I could have made quite a few loricas of the same construction as has been found for the same cost.

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,

I've stumbled onto another example of a nude statue belonging to the genre that displays the "armor" separately in heroic fashsion and, like some of the others, this one seems to definitively show a subarmalis OR a purely ceremonial leather musculata. Notice how the material crumples which indicates its softness and therefore uselessness as a stand-alone piece of "armor".



~Theo

[hoplite14gr]

Is this better Theo?
http://content.answers.com/main/content ... ios_II.jpg

Kind regards