It's also worth noting that we can't assume every variation depicted by an artist represents some real and as yet undiscovered armor. Take for example this grave relief, attached. Should we assume that romans frequently wore turtle necks and argue whether bronze or leather makes a better turtle neck? Or should we sometimes just chock it up to an artist screwing up the neck on this piece, and leave it at that? You can't explain all of this stuff, and inventing solutions to problems in art is likely to produce even more speculative results.
Quote:It's also worth noting that we can't assume every variation depicted by an artist represents some real and as yet undiscovered armor. Take for example this grave relief, attached. Should we assume that romans frequently wore turtle necks and argue whether bronze or leather makes a better turtle neck? Or should we sometimes just chock it up to an artist screwing up the neck on this piece, and leave it at that? You can't explain all of this stuff, and inventing solutions to problems in art is likely to produce even more speculative results.
I like that you show this particular relieve, because have many important features.
but I will like to point some important things before.
Greco-Roman art was, stilistically speaking, the most realistical in art history ever, till renaisance rediscover of ancient skills and arts.
The purpose of artist before invention of cameras, was exactly that, to copy the subjects as better as possible. As you can expect, a grumpy centurion or his family hairs will not pay for a non properly done work, that could look funny or irreverent. So, no much space for aestetical inventiosns.
The "turtle neck" cuirass,is not accidentally modeled, but made on purpose. As a sculptor I can tell you that this shape has to be properly plan, before chiseling and is not an "accidental" shape. The rest od the subjects including the armour are very well made in terms of perspective, a difficult subject in relieve technique.
The other point I will make is that type of cuirasse with "turttle neck" is not an oddity. Micenian warriors use them and there are other Roman relieves, normally related to Praefects that show this kind of cuirass. Attach you will see some.
About painting the sculptures I have to say that it takes longer to mimic a chain mail painting than to make in sculpture, with far much better realistic results. So I don´t agree in that aproach, that has not any image that can support it. In the other hand I can show you many sulptures of chainmail, scale and even plumata armours.
I´m afraid is just a wrong approach...to suport things that don´t mach with the standart beliefs.
Xavi, I still think you're making your own set of misleading assumptions, however, I do appreciate the images you're providing. Very interesting. I've never seen the one in your second to last post. Are you sure that it is in fact ancient in origin, and not a later Renaissance interpretation? Still, quite interesting. The "turtleneck," at least on initial examination, would seem to be part of the subarmalis, wouldn't you agree?
Most busts of Romans wearing musculata show a bit of fabric peeking out around the neckhole. The figurines that you posted also appear to show the neck as as separate piece, probably a subarmilis worn under the armor. The relief I posted shows a turtleneck that is of a single piece with the cuirass, and one that is moreover entirely out of proportion with the rest of armor. Xavi, you are just putting too much faith in the artist.
Also, I'm quite certain that the the full sized statue you posted is a work of the renaissance, not ancient Rome. The commanders baton, the facial hair, and the interesting style of the armor all indicate this. Artists of the renaissance were very much in love with everything Roman. They even produced armor inspired by Greece and Roman, which was called "All'Antica". Negroli produced some very fine examples that I suspect the Romans themselves would have loved.
If possible could you provide more info on the full statue regardless? I tried to look it up, but I can't find it. A name or location or artist would be very helpful.
I agree that This may be renaisance work. I Got it long a go. The small statuette Is More interesting Because it has same features than the relieve. Musculata, neck, ans officers sword hanging from a interesting ribbetet belt.
Quote:I agree that This may be renaisance work. I Got it long a go. The small statuette Is More interesting Because it has same features than the relieve. Musculata, neck, ans officers sword hanging from a interesting ribbetet belt.
But neither of these shows the turtle neck as a single piece with the armor, nor do they advance whatever point you are making about linen armor. Truth be told, I'm starting to get very confused what point you are trying to make about linen armor. I don't think anyone here doubts that linen armor was used in some form(s). So what exactly are you trying to show? That muscle cuirasses were actually made from linen? That we should assume that musculata is all really linen because of few odd reliefs, even though the physical (and logical) evidence is for metal? I'm not trying to be rude, but the discussion is starting to get pretty frustrating, because I can't pin down exactly what you are trying to argue.
.Aldrete has mention in his experiments that when the armour was heated and gets more elastic also was more dificult to penetrate.
There is only one way that makes possible to create a musculata armour wth flexible shoulders, and this will be with glue and linen in a mold, - using the right glue..
Quote:.Aldrete has mention in his experiments that when the armour was heated and gets more elastic also was more dificult to penetrate.
There is only one way that makes possible to create a musculata armour wth flexible shoulders, and this will be with glue and linen in a mold, - using the right glue..
There is no way to make a musculata with flexible shoulders. The only option is to make it so thin that it no longer functions as armour. Try it and see. You'll end up with a Hollywood costume, not something that is of use in battle.
Did you try?
For an officer cuirass we will asume that is not for close combat, but to resist an arrow. I will go to a thickness between 8 and 11 layers glued.
One of the reasons to investigate in glued linen is that it floats. I ask Aldrete to try if the cuirass was able to float and he did confirm me. The problem is that rabbit glue get dissolve in water.
As the origins of the armour are probably from the navy, if we asume that Iphicrates has something to do in their adoption by greeks, an armour able to float makes a big difference.
