Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
02-09-2015, 01:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2015, 12:27 PM by Crispianus.)
My version of the shoe from Weerdinge based on pg 386, fig 12 "Stepping through Time"
Length 27cm so Would likely be for man but could also fit a Woman* until you take into account its probably shrunk quite a bit.... normally I would add 10% but in this case it seems too much, leather doesn't shrink evenly after all...
Dating, I've seen some C14 dates for bog bodies from Weerdinge which might indicate a 1st century AD date... but I'm not sure if these shoes are related... **
Sooo on stylistic evidence I think its possible these are quite a bit later, maybe 4th to 5th cent AD but really your guess is as good as mine ;-)
* The shoe follows a womens foot shape quite well, for some at any rate....
Edit: **seems like they may be related as the date given by the museum is 0-200 AD.
A link to the shoes in the Museum: they are little different in the toe, maybe more Tabs/straps? the shoe appears to have been cut by a spade and repaired, The pattern is basically a half oval with tabs /\\/\\/\\ cut out at the front with an inverted T seam to form the heel shape.
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=W.e.+2
If the search times out search for " schoen Weerdinge" ....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
A few notes on Construction and leather:
A last was used to make the shoe on(but this is not necessary just easier and produces a better shape) actuallly one of three, this is the trial piece or pattern.
Leather used is about 3.5mm thick flexible veg tanned cowhide, the upper part including the tabs has been deliberately thinned out (using a skiving knife) to about half its original thickness.
The heel upper is stitched on the outside with a single thread and two needles in an inverted T using raw flax thread.
The base of the heel seam is stitched on the inside.
This arrangement allows for comfort at the heel without exposing the seam to wear.
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 183
Threads: 12
Joined: Apr 2011
Reputation:
0
Tremendous craftsmanship Ivor.
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
02-12-2015, 10:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2015, 12:28 PM by Crispianus.)
A further note on dating..... Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any definite reason for the dating of 0-200ad.... maybe someone out there has some info...
However it seems that there is a similar shoe from Oberflacht* from a mans grave dated by dead tree to 580ad, given that this shoe is not exactly the same and has some difference's, but also many similarity's, I think its safe to say the Drenthe shoe could be much later then 200ad...
Drenthe shoe find date: nothing firm but before 1870 so its been knocking about for a long time...
The Oberflacht shoe, one of a pair dated 580ad.
sources:
"Stepping Though Time" 2001 pg 390 "The material from Germany"
"Die Alterthümer unserer heidnischen Vorzeit" Bd 2, 1870, Taf V
"Die Franken" 1996 pg 693
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 4,861
Threads: 129
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation:
32
Oh, that would go perfectly with that Frisian Helmet 
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
02-12-2015, 11:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2015, 12:30 PM by Crispianus.)
Quote:Oh, that would go perfectly with that Frisian Helmet
Wouldn't it just :grin:
This may be more suitable though..... again it has similarity's and not so far away in distance, dating seems to be generally excepted as early medieval 5th-6th cent ad, though it is another bog find.
Length 26cm but its likely shrunk a bit....
Source for the image: "Zum Ostkastell von Welzheim" 1998 page 43.
"Stepping through Time" pg387 (this books lacks a useful index and could really use one!)
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 1,677
Threads: 75
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
5
Quote:... I think its safe to say the Drenthe shoe could be much later then 200ad...
Looking at the details, especially at the toe area I agree. The shoe is also mentioned in Oltmanns, V., Zwei frühgeschichtliche Schuhe aus Ostfriesland. Nachrichten aus Niedersachsens Urgeschichte 76, 2007, 77-86, in comparison to the find from Westerholt.
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
Thanks Martin Will order a copy  mile:
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 1,962
Threads: 106
Joined: Apr 2003
Reputation:
7
Nice! What kind of leather have you used, please?
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
Cesar, Very flexible 3.5mm cow hide but the upper part is half the thickness.... so it has a thicker sole and thinner upper part .... adding an insole from the same leather would increase the thickness of the sole to a nominal 7mm......
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 1,962
Threads: 106
Joined: Apr 2003
Reputation:
7
Could a carbatina be made in 1 mm leather? Any roman shoes in such kind of leather?
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
Cesar, depends on the leather and the conditions of use, but likely it wouldn't last more then a couple of days... I would say 2mm as a minimum thickness with an additional insole from thick felt, wooly sheepskin etc should be ok for a while, maximum thickness will often depend on the flexibility of the leather...
Any shoes should last at least a month in continuous use before they need repairing otherwise you may as well not bother with them mile:
1mm could be used for linings or reinforcements inside shoes or in two or more layers to produce an upper(decorative) ...
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Posts: 1,677
Threads: 75
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
5
Quote:Could a carbatina be made in 1 mm leather? Any roman shoes in such kind of leather?
Sure, and as long as you walk carefully and majestically on highly polished marble floors, they'd last a while as well ;-)
More seriously, as Ivor said, it doesn't really make sense for carbatinae, but there is thin leather used for uppers, also typically it is hard to say anything specific about original thickness with finds. If you look at the calcei e.g. on the Ara Pacis, the upper needed to be very thin leather (if it was leather at all) to define the wearer's toes anywhere near to how it is depicted.
Posts: 1,068
Threads: 51
Joined: Aug 2011
Reputation:
82
Quote:LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS post=365264 Wrote:Could a carbatina be made in 1 mm leather? Any roman shoes in such kind of leather?
Sure, and as long as you walk carefully and majestically on highly polished marble floors, they'd last a while as well ;-)
More seriously, as Ivor said, it doesn't really make sense for carbatinae, but there is thin leather used for uppers, also typically it is hard to say anything specific about original thickness with finds. If you look at the calcei e.g. on the Ara Pacis, the upper needed to be very thin leather (if it was leather at all) to define the wearer's toes anywhere near to how it is depicted.
Of course leather degrades over time and Stretches/shrinks/distorts being organic and skin, its really one of the major problems for reconstructing footware from archaeological remains and why patterns need to be carefully thought out....
I think to make shoes where the toes show, thin leather works fine, but I would use a soft flexible goat skin 1.5-2mm thick( a normal goatskin thickness not deliberatly thinned) over 2mm would probably be too much though the bigger older goats can be very thick... the key to this though I think is soft flexible leather rather then the thickness as you can always thin out a piece of leather that is suitable but otherwise too thick.. pick the leather to suit the shoe....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
|
