heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry

[Sean Manning]

I believe Vegetius recognised four types of cavalry, the Clibanarii/Catafractarii who both rider and horse were armoured, the 'normal' cavalry who wore body armour, light cavalry and horse archers.

Thanks for the reference! Vegetius, Epitoma rei militaris 3.17 does contrast cavalry who wear armour and carry the contos and cavalry archers who do not wear armour. The first are described as “stronger” (fortiores) and the second as “quicker and unencumbered” (velociores et expediti). It sounds like he is trying to describe Maurice's division of cavalry into cursores who ride apart and shoot arrows, and defensores who ride in close formation and fight with lances and bows. At 3.23 he talks about cataphracts. I don't know of any other types of cavalry in Vegetius, except for the cavalry of the legion.

[Vindex]

I believe Vegetius recognised four types of cavalry, the Clibanarii/Catafractarii who both rider and horse were armoured, the 'normal' cavalry who wore body armour, light cavalry and horse archers.

All of which was feasible with the horse breeds they had at the time. Anything heavier and you'd have to start breeding different horses...a sort of ancient world arms race, I suppose :wink:

[richard robinson]

My first ancient culture that I was interested in were the Assyrians who I believe were the first to have a true cavalry. they were the dominant culture circa 800-600bce (correct me if i am out). The reliefs depict them riding armoured in helmets and cuirasses and so possibly heavy cavalry?
regards
Richard

[Michael Kerr]

Richard robinson wrote:

The Assyrians who I believe were the first to have a true cavalry. They were the dominant culture circa 800-600bce

I just finished a book called "March of the Scythians" by Cam Rae where he traces the Scythians & Cimmerians not through Greek sources but through Assyrian inscriptions which go into great detail about these nomadic riders from Sargon II to the fall of Nineveh and it seems he tends to agree with you. He said that the Scythians & Cimmerians taught the Assyrians about horsemanship but the Assyrians or contact with the Assyrians taught the Scythians about armour & weapons (lamellar armour, helmets, lances & even the Scythians favoutite weapon the ice pick like sagaris was based on the Assyrian battle axe}.
Below is a bronze relief from around 850BC of mounted Assyrian archers. They are at this time riding badly, retaining the Egyptian "donkey seat" and so unsteady are the Assyrians on their horses that they are being led by aides who hold the reins while the warriors use their bows. Pictures off Times Life series "The Emergence of Man" The First Horsemen covering nomadic riders of the Steppe.


[attachment=7851]assyrianearly.jpg[/attachment]


The image below is from a relief in Nineveh from 7th Century BC where the Assyrian riders control their mounts easily & ride well forward displaying good horsemanship which they probably learned off the Scythians or Cimmerians


[attachment=7852]laterassyrian-Copy-Copy.jpg[/attachment]

So something changed in the Assyrian cavalry between the 2 reliefs & that fits in roughly with your timeframe.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Vindex]

... They are at this time riding badly, retaining the Egyptian "donkey seat" and so unsteady are the Assyrians on their horses that they are being led by aides who hold the reins while the warriors use their bows. Pictures off Times Life series "The Emergence of Man" The First Horsemen covering nomadic riders of the Steppe.


[attachment=7851]assyrianearly.jpg[/attachment]


The image below is from a relief in Nineveh from 7th Century BC where the Assyrian riders control their mounts easily & ride well forward displaying good horsemanship which they probably learned off the Scythians or Cimmerians


[attachment=7852]laterassyrian-Copy-Copy.jpg[/attachment]

So something changed in the Assyrian cavalry between the 2 reliefs & that fits in roughly with your timeframe.

Regards
Michael Kerr

I would like to suggest that there is potential for the difference you're looking for in the mount itself.

In the first image - interpreted as a "donkey seat", being led etc - the depiction of the animal is quite different to that of the second image. Allowing for artistic license I would suggest to you that the first animal is either an ass or a mule (look at the head) which may well account for the seat. Also, being notoriously wayward and frequently oblivious of the rider's requests, asses/mules can just do their own thing. Perhaps they are being led to a starting point so that when the first animal picks up speed, the rest just go with the flow.

The second image is undoubtedly a horse.

Mules and horses are very similar and can be ridden the same. An ass is a slightly different variation on a theme and although I have not ridden one, perhaps the more backward seat is due to the animal's preference for where it's "go" button is ie where best to kick to get it to move; and yes, mules can have very long legs.

[Urselius]

The tails of the beasts in the first image are more horse-like than donkey-like - bearing in mind contemporary donkeys would have closely resembled wild asses/onagers. Also the larger ears of donkeys and their relatives are not evident. They look more like horses to me.

[Vindex]

And mules?

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/7-off-topic...tml#339083

[Michael Kerr]

Hi Moi, I agree with you that the animals of both reliefs look different. Could be the artist wanted to show that these archers are not trained horsemen but foot archers on horseback. Maybe a mule but with the date of the relief around 850 BC where mid east civilizations switched to horses from onagers/asses around the beginning of 2nd millennium BC for various reasons including the fact that the onager was weaker than the horse, seems a bit late for onagers. Chariots with onagers were popular with Sumerians with teams of 4 onagers and 4 wheels. I have another image from same book supposedly of an Egyptian battle scene from 1350BC where the rider is sitting on the back of a horse or onager in a "donkey seat" position. The author suggests because of the long reins the rider is fleeing the conflict on an escaped chariot horse. Could be trying to depict how an inexperienced rider would sit on a horse or maybe this horse is an onager or ass. Hyksos were thought to have brought horses to Egypt around 1500BC.

[attachment=7867]egyptiandonkeyseat.jpg[/attachment]

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Urselius]

Well mules also have large ears. But I think that we are looking at an evolution in riding styles, not riding styles being dictated by the type of equine.

The standard of Ur indicates that ancient artists were capable of showing recognisable donkey-like equids - large ears, tails with a fly-whisk shape, a large head to body size ratio, relatively short legs:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/profzucker/7324391184/

The equids shown in the archer image have small ears, horse-like tails, small head to body size ratios and relatively long legs.

[Michael Kerr]

Urselius wrote:

Well mules also have large ears. But I think that we are looking at an evolution in riding styles, not riding styles being dictated by the type of equine.

Evolution in saddle development maybe over time. The earliest known saddle-like equipment were fringed cloths or pads used by Assyrian cavalry around 700 BC. These were held on with a girth or surcingle that included breast straps and cruppers. Image description states “early Assyrians relied on cavalry teams consisting of a charioteer riding one horse & holding reins of the other horse leaving the other charioteer archer free to shoot the enemy with arrows as they rode around" but this changed when Tiglath-pileser III invaded Media in 8th century BC when he noticed Median horsemen's' effectiveness against his “foot archers forced to fight on horseback teams". So maybe this is the time when Assyrians either copied nomad riding skills & equipment or even hired them to help develop a proper horse archer cavalry with good horse riding skills.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Vindex]

But I think that we are looking at an evolution in riding styles, not riding styles being dictated by the type of equine.

Point taken on the depictions (just playing devil's advocate and someone who does not like the assumptions the ancients couldn't ride).

May I ask if you ride?

[Michael Kerr]

Vindex wrote:

(just playing devil's advocate and someone who does not like the assumptions the ancients couldn't ride).

Sorry if you feel I was assuming ancients couldn't ride as that was not my intent. I was quoting from the captions from the images & forgot to put them in quotes, I was merely referring to a book which covered early nomad riders point of view & the effects of contact with sedentary nations particularly the Assyrians & how these nations/empires coped & then adapted to changes in cavalry warfare like getting rid of chariot wagon & mounting driver & archer & still operating as a team with driver steering and archer shooting as initial step against early nomads like early Medes, Scythians, Cimmerians & how nomads also benefited from contact with Assyrians with better armour & weapons. Richard A. Gabriel in his book “Soldiers Lives Through History The Ancient World" says of the early Assyrian horsemen.

The new “cavalrymen” still fought in the manner of the old chariot system of driver and archer, operating in pairs, with one “charioteer” riding his horse while holding the reins of another, on which sat the chariot archer with his composite bow. The “charioteer” managed both horses, leaving the archer free to concentrate on shooting, just as if he were in a chariot. The “charioteer” was armed with a spear, and both he and the archer wore the standard armor, helmet, and other equipment of the Assyrian chariot team. The cavalry team used the same horse harness and bit used for chariot horses. The Assyrians used these cavalry teams for almost fifty years before the individual horseman armed with either spear or bow made his appearance during the reign of Tiglath-Pileser III (745–727 b.c.e.), giving rise to the true horse cavalryman.

Maybe it was the fact they had to use chariot harness why they look so awkward on the horses or would the rear of a horse be a more stable shooting platform for an inexperienced horse archer?


Regards
Michael Kerr

[Vindex]

I wasn't referring to you at all, Michael, so my apologies. It was more some of the authors on these subjects who can be somewhat dismissive without really substantiating their claims.

You can certainly stand on the hind end of a horse/mule/ ass/ donkey but I'm not at all sure about sitting; nor am I sure it would be more stable than sitting on the horses back between fore and hind quarters.. Many horses are very sensitive in that area and it can be a guaranteed way of getting bucked off, but I have never tried it myself.

[Urselius]

But I think that we are looking at an evolution in riding styles, not riding styles being dictated by the type of equine.

Point taken on the depictions (just playing devil's advocate and someone who does not like the assumptions the ancients couldn't ride).

May I ask if you ride?

I have ridden horses and donkeys, a few times bare-backed in both cases, but I couldn't claim to be an accomplished rider. I have written a number of articles on cavalry combat, though concerning the Napoleonic period.

[Domen]

It seems that these Mesopotamian and Egyptian depictions of horses posted above, are still showing larger animals than similar depictions of horses from Northern Europe of roughly the same period:

http://www.archeurope.com/index.php?page...un-chariot





And this from a chieftain’s grave in southern Sweden, from roughly the same period:

http://www.khm.uio.no/tema/utstillingsar...ehest.html



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BTW - here many pictures of Chinese Terracotta army horses:

https://www.google.pl/search?q=Terracott...1#imgdii=_