heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Asparus was the leader of the Cavalry force that went to depose Ioannes in 425 :wink:

[Gesiþ]

The ERE had a funny little string of Sarmatians in the 5th century, with names like Aspar and Ardabur one thinks of Sassanids, even.

[Alanus]

Nuk, nuk, nuk :grin:

And I think there was a big-wheel Aspar in the Eastern Empire around AD 500. If I recall correctly, he would have become Emperor but he kept a Gothic concubine... which the general public didn't approve of. :whistle:

[Michael Kerr]

In regards to the shock of impact with heavy cavalry.I shall post an article below discussing medieval jousting & training horses. Not ancient cavalry but revelant to discussion on heavy cavalry.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Alanus]

Btw regarding your picture of Cyrus defeat you have got to love how medieval artists depicted ancient battles.
Regards
Michael Kerr

Although slightly off-subject-- yet "supposedly" depicting the general (Tomyris) who led the Massagetae heavy cavalry against the army/cavalry of Cyrus-- here are two more antique pictures of the famous event. Just for grins.


[attachment=7802]tomyris2.JPG[/attachment]
I think this one comes from the 1700s. Somehow-- for whatever reason-- Tomyris has lost all of her clothes... even though she won the battle. Oh, well. Win some, lose some. :dizzy:

And here is a 19th century version. In this art-piece, the Massagetae look fierce and furry, somewhat like 20th century artists viewed the Huns.
[attachment=7803]tomyris3.JPG[/attachment]

[Michael Kerr]

Alanus wrote:

Notice the "aspar" in the king's name, which I think denoted "horseman

I know I am drifting off-topic but in regards to the name Aspar. “Horse man" or “horse master".With the names mentioned above I add Aspurgus who was a "Bosporan king" with a Sarmatian mother who prided himself on being a friend of Rome during the time of Augustus & Tiberius. Name was popular among Goths & I accidentally found out while looking for Icelandic male names that Aspar is one of the most popular male names in Iceland & they can't trace it's origin. Don't know if there was a connection or contact between Norsemen & Sarmatians/Alans but I am curious as to how an Old Iranic name got to be so popular in Iceland of all places. I shall post link below of an article of possible Central Asian links with Scandinavians which was interesting. Iceland has a large horse population even today “Icelandic horses" with a population of 80,000 horses to 317,000 people. So maybe there was a tradition among later horse herders of calling their sons Aspar. Possibility that Aspar was a name of Sarmatian/Saka diety who protected horses or even a long forgotten Sarmatian/Saka hero. Speculating now. Maybe the origins of word goes back much further to “Indo-European" roots?

http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRoo...idence.pdf

In case anyone is interested in horse breeds here is Wikipedia entry about “Icelandic horse" & the ruthless way they maintained the integrity of the breed by allowing the stallions to fight with the winner getting breeding rights. This was an old practice & is discontinued now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_horse

Apologies for drifting.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Domen]

BTW - cavalry types in history according to Digby Smith, with one addition from other authors:

- heavy cavalry
- medium cavalry
- light lancers
- line cavalry
- light cavalry
- irregular cavalry

When it comes to line cavalry - this term was applied to some gunpowder era cavalry formations. Ancient equivalent of line cavalry would be horse archers, and later Medieval mounted crossbowmen.

[Urselius]

The Icelanders also staged stallion fights for entertainment, one is described in Grettir's Saga. The stallion fight led to a grisly-comical encounter, one of the crowd was a beserker who had a grudge against Grettir and picked a fight with him, The berserker, who was mounted, began to work himself up into a frenzy and started gnawing his shield rim - whereupon Grettir calmly kicked the bottom of the shield upwards breaking the berserker's jaw.

The term "line cavalry" implies the standard cavalry of the time, neither of guard status nor having a speciality combat role. In Napoleonic French terms they would be all cavalry not in the Imperial guard or cuirassiers, the status of lancers and hussars would be a bit debatable.

[M. Demetrius]

calmly kicked the bottom of the shield upwards breaking the berserker's jaw.

Yep, that would stop the fight, wouldn't it?

[Domen]

The term "line cavalry" implies the standard cavalry of the time

Sorry but no, not according to Digby Smith's typology at least.

Digby Smith counts dragoons, mounted grenadiers and carabiniers as line cavalry.

=================================

hussars

Hussars was a name applied to a few different cavalry formations. Early hussars were basically light lancers, Polish husaria since the 2nd half of the 16th century were heavy cavalry, while 18th and 19th century huzars were light cavalry. Three very different formations belonging to three different types of cavalry.

Early hussars originated in Serbia, later this cavalry was adopted in Hungary and in Poland. When Polish hussars transformed into heavy cavalry, they abandoned shields but started wearing armour.

[Urselius]

The term "cavalry of the line" and its infantry equivalent ("infantry of the line") were not precise terms. Whereas guard units were never "of the line" the demarcation of other units was and is less certain. For the British Army the Lifeguards and the Royal Horseguards were not of the line, the position of the seven regiments of Dragoon Guards is debatable, due to their quasi-guard status. They had a distinct numbering sequence, 1st to 7th, apart from that of the Dragoons and Light Dragoons, who were numbered 1st to 25th. However, they served in exactly the same way as, and were armed identically to, the Heavy Dragoons (1st to 6th in the list). The same with the infantry, the Foot Guards were not of the line, but the light infantry regiments and rifle regiment were of the line in the sense that they were in the same numbering system with "ordinary regiments", but not in the sense that they had distinct training and functions.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Line Infantry and Line Cavalry do not mean anything specific. It just means whomever were the Regular "Cavalry." For example in the Late Roman Army, Shock Cavalry like Promoti, Stablesiani, Cataphractarii, Saggitarii, and Scutarii were the "Line Cavalry." The Comitatenses and Limitanei were "Line Infantry."

[Sean Manning]

BTW - cavalry types in history according to Digby Smith, with one addition from other authors:

- heavy cavalry
- medium cavalry
- light lancers
- line cavalry
- light cavalry
- irregular cavalry

When it comes to line cavalry - this term was applied to some gunpowder era cavalry formations. Ancient equivalent of line cavalry would be horse archers, and later Medieval mounted crossbowmen.

Peter, I think that any typology will only make sense for a specific time and place. That typology sounds like it is based on Napoleonic practice. Classical Greeks just recognized cavalry and horse archers; Hellenistic Greeks recognized doratophoroi, hippakontistai, hippotoxotai, and kataphraktoi. Fourteenth century Frenchmen recognized men-at-arms, gros valets, and strange foreign troops such as Turks and mounted crossbowmen.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I believe Vegetius recognised four types of cavalry, the Clibanarii/Catafractarii who both rider and horse were armoured, the 'normal' cavalry who wore body armour, light cavalry and horse archers.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

That's right VV. This is roughly those groupings:

Clibanarii - Super-Heavy Armored Horse and Rider
Cataphractarii - Fully Armored Rider
Scutarii/Promoti/Stablesiani - Comitatensian Infatryman on Horseback, Scutarii had a large infatry shield. Armed with sword or Contus
Mauri/Dalmatae - Light Cavalry specialists
Saggitarii - Roman Horse Archers and Federate (Huns, Alans, etc) Armored or Unarmored. Later in the Early 5th century Saggitarii would replace Scutarii/Promoti etc because of Lance-and Bow Warfare.