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Sarmatiana: A List of References, Old & New
#16
Alan, great list of things, thanks. I would say though that if you're after more general Indo-Iranian stuff, et al, than the industry standard is very much Bryant (sp?) on origins and issues and the other guy (women?) whose name begins with like Gamk- or something, I don't have my bibliography to hand...Also Davis-Kimball is pretty...ahem..idiosyncratic I guess.

How acquainted are you with Sima Qian btw? I found the histories very very awkward to grasp with myself and have only met a handful of people who've even heard of them. Its a shame; there's so much comparative stuff been written on Greek and Chinese logic, literacy, philosophy and ethics yet no one has really broached history.

"Unfortunately, there are no Roman references that describe the technique. Pliny does mention that the "best iron' (sword blade blanks?) "arrives upon camels from the east." "

This doesn't mean much btw, it could even reference wootz steel from India or the wonderful Persian iron - both of which were considerably better than anything the steppes were producing. Also bear in mind the lust felt for Greek metallurgy by various nomadic peoples around the black sea. And the Greeks weren't objectively that good either, so...


Quote:Is there a book or article about the Sarmatians in Britain? Stationed way up in the Derbyshire Dales I'd love to find a connection between their horse breeding expertise and the current Dales pony Confusedmile:

I've always suspected this myself...but I wonder....I mean considering that all our modern western European breeds were decided on very recently, despite the conceit one sees in popular histories linking x breed with y "extinct" breed. It does deserve some serious study. But...there are times when I've seen something of those hardy asiatic horses in our own over here. I don't know....something about the profile or the way the ears stick up or something. I suspect that there is some link there but can't prove it. So suspicion it remains.
Jass
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#17
Quote:Alan, great list of things, thanks. Also Davis-Kimball is pretty...ahem..idiosyncratic I guess.
How acquainted are you with Sima Qian btw? I found the histories very very awkward to grasp with myself and have only met a handful of people who've even heard of them.

The 2 references I cited were edited by Davis-Kimball, but all the chapters were written by Russians. I see no loss of objectivity with Ms. Davis-Kimball as simply the editor. Sima Qian is not easy to read-- I have his complete works-- but his history is all we have from the Far East. Most interesting is the Wusun/Alanic origin of the "heavenly horses" of Emperor Wu-di, a breed perhaps originating in the Ili River Valley, but likely extending from the Payzryk culture. We also see incidences of Chinese princesses married into the Wusun nobility.


Quote:"Unfortunately, there are no Roman references that describe the technique. Pliny does mention that the "best iron' (sword blade blanks?) "arrives upon camels from the east."

Quote:This doesn't mean much btw, it could even reference wootz steel from India or the wonderful Persian iron - both of which were considerably better than anything the steppes were producing. Also bear in mind the lust felt for Greek metallurgy by various nomadic peoples around the black sea. And the Greeks weren't objectively that good either, so...

For Western iron, Pliny mentions Raetia. Don't forget the term chalybis, from the Chalybes, a south-eastern Black Sea tribe mentioned by Herodotus. Also, we must include the Afgani, since early Viking steel has been metalurgically analysed to an Afgan origin. I quoted Pliny verbatum, "from the east."

If those following this thread go back to Page 1 and study the techniques used to create the 2 Early Sarmatian (4th century BC) swords found at Filippovka, there can be no doubt that these craftsmen were far ahead of the Romans and Greeks. I maintained that Early Sarmatian technology was borrowed by the Chinese, as per Truesdale. Wootz and Persian steel also would arrive "from the east." But to consider Roman metalurgy as equal to 4th century BC eastern steel is stretching it a bit. :whistle:

If the "industry standard" for Indo-Iranian history is someone named "Bryant," how do we get leads on his/her publications? :dizzy:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#18
Hi I assume he means Edwin Bryant I can find 2 books by him
The Quest For The Origins of Vedic Culture
The Indo-Aryan Controversy

Jeannine Davis-Kimball
Nomads Of The Eurasian Steppes In The Early Iron Age

Thomas V. Gamkrelidze

I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong but I think these are the authors that Lyceum put forward
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#19
Thanks for finding Edwin Bryant. These could be interesting. The controversy has been going on for 100 years, with advocates pinpointing origins in the Lavant (the Middle East) as opposed to the Uralic-Caspian. It's whatever and whomever you side with; and I'll take Mallory and Anthony, thank you. There's a recent wrench in the works, positing the Indians (Indo-Aryans) with no genetic relationship to the Indo-Iranians. But who claims that language, culture, or technology is spread by DNA alone? :dizzy: I'd say it was spread by trade and association.

Well, anyway, we can add Bryant to the list. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#20
Sorry the weather is worsening and I'm running around like a maniac trying to get everything done before Easter lethargy ruins everything, I sort of assumed/hoped that Bryant was decipherable. Pretty phenomenal work in both cases, the latter an edited volume with some decent stuff. I agree with you that Mallory is brilliant, perfectly affable chap too, I like his overall work though I disagree with his conclusions. Still, he's one of the few sane voices. I don't really rate a lot of the Russian work, its just as bad as some of the earlier German work in this area... I play it safe by not really having an opinion since the overall quality of scholarship is poor.

Gamkrelidze is sometimes maligned but out of the various works its the most sensible in philological terms except for the obviously dated bits.

"There's a recent wrench in the works, positing the Indians (Indo-Aryans) with no genetic relationship to the Indo-Iranians. "

Really? not seen that one, certainly goes against the bulk of stuff I've seen both more generally and as part of a project mapping Mycenaeans. I'll ask some of my colleagues in the area. I agree with you on language spread in general btw which is why we have so many wonderful models.

Again, thanks for the thread, especially because it deals with a people several centuries more modern than what I usually work with.

EDIT: Also, is it worth us linking in review articles of some of these books? I'm not sure how many are behind paywalls via JSTOR, Wiley and other services, but still?
Jass
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#21
Quote:
Vindex post=333471 Wrote:Is there a book or article about the Sarmatians in Britain? Stationed way up in the Derbyshire Dales I'd love to find a connection between their horse breeding expertise and the current Dales pony Confusedmile:

I've always suspected this myself...but I wonder....I mean considering that all our modern western European breeds were decided on very recently, despite the conceit one sees in popular histories linking x breed with y "extinct" breed. It does deserve some serious study. But...there are times when I've seen something of those hardy asiatic horses in our own over here. I don't know....something about the profile or the way the ears stick up or something. I suspect that there is some link there but can't prove it. So suspicion it remains.

Depends on what you mean by very recently, but the European warmblood (or dumb blood!) has a lot to answer for! The mixing of draft horses and "lighter" animals to produce bigger cavalry horses hasn't helped, but every now and then you do get a throw back as you suggest.

Oh for some funding Confusedmile:
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#22
Quote:
Lyceum post=333554 Wrote:
Vindex post=333471 Wrote:Is there a book or article about the Sarmatians in Britain? Stationed way up in the Derbyshire Dales I'd love to find a connection between their horse breeding expertise and the current Dales pony Confusedmile:

I've always suspected this myself...but I wonder....I mean considering that all our modern western European breeds were decided on very recently, despite the conceit one sees in popular histories linking x breed with y "extinct" breed. It does deserve some serious study. But...there are times when I've seen something of those hardy asiatic horses in our own over here. I don't know....something about the profile or the way the ears stick up or something. I suspect that there is some link there but can't prove it. So suspicion it remains.

Depends on what you mean by very recently, but the European warmblood (or dumb blood!) has a lot to answer for! The mixing of draft horses and "lighter" animals to produce bigger cavalry horses hasn't helped, but every now and then you do get a throw back as you suggest.

Oh for some funding Confusedmile:

Yeah that's the problem, there's really not enough money to go around as it is. Morever, most "pure" archaeological projects are pretty in blind in what they're throwing money after the same damn things, producing results which those under the broad heading of Philology (linguistics, literary guys, religion, history, epigraphy etc) shake their head at and point out problems with evidence. Its worrying. In the UK its better but that's irrelevant.

I did suggest something to do with horses about a year ago at a conference, the conversation was talking about using certain animals (like chickens) to track movement alongside the usual stuff about grains. You'd be surprised how many people were somewhat wistful over the idea, but again, money. So its not necessarily that people don't want to, just that...people are broke. To be fair such a project would require a lot of cash too.
Jass
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#23
For sure; blood typing is an expensive business.

Still, the Euromillion Lottery is at £80M today...worth a £2 punt ;-)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#24
I agree with both of you. The whole thing-- from day one, and Mr. Jones-- is subjective. We're not seeing much on horse DNA, and that Indian (aka India-Indian) DNA response came to me on a Linkedin ancient history thread, but the person gave no details to back it up. Strange that without DNA we find a language and cultural root that's hard to confute, going right back to the Vedas and Gathas, and then find the same sociological links at Sintashta.

None of this can be confirmed, and it's all theory. But I prefer it over Renfrew and the recent Renfrewistic headlines pinpointing Turkey, so incredulous that Turkish nationists have quipped, "We are right," and Indo-European logic slides down the drain. :whistle:

It would seem, as far as horses go, that any DNA test would link Britain's breeds to the steppe in any case. That's were horses originated in the beginning. :dizzy:

I'm glad to see all the links and references we are accumulating here. It places the Sarmatians in the middle of the big picture, albiet late-comers as they were.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#25
Also in regards to ancient writers I have to mention Ovid who while in exile in Tomis composed his poems about his exile including meeting "Sarmatians".
Quote:as soon as the Danube’s levelled by dry winds,
the barbarian host attack on swift horses:
strong in horses and strong in far-flung arrows
laying waste the neighbouring lands far and wide.
Some men flee: and, with their fields unguarded,
their undefended wealth is plundered,
the scant wealth of the country, herds
and creaking carts, whatever a poor farmer has.
Some, hands tied, are driven off as captives,
looking back in vain at their farms and homes.
some die wretchedly pierced by barbed arrows,
since there’s a touch of venom on the flying steel.
They destroy what they can’t carry, or lead away,
and enemy flames burn the innocent houses.
Even at peace, they tremble on the edge of war,
and no man ploughs the soil with curving blade.
This place sees the enemy, or fears him unseen:
the earth lies idle, abandoned to harsh neglect.
I think he was referring to Iazyges at this time early 1st Century so they must have been on the move to Hungary. I read where Ovid actually learned to like the Iazyges and composed poetry in their language but alas if this is true its a shame that they are lost as we don't have much idea about their language..
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#26
Michael,

Thanks for your time in giving us Ovid. Yes, they were Iazyges (which I personally don't think were true Sarmatians, but that's just my bias). I'd forgotten about Ovid; and I also forgot to list Mikhail Treister's article, "On Sarmatian Type Weapons in the Bosphorus Kingdom, 1st to 2nd Centuries AD." It's available on the internet as a PDF, but no pics. He discusses the akinakes, which he calls "daggers," mentions the Type 1 Sarmatian sword (but no designation), and describes the same bow-case-quivers we find on the Orlat plaque. Also mentions how swords were carried on a warrior's back, so not conjecture as we sometimes think.

We're putting together a good list of resources. Confusedmile:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#27
Alanus wrote:
Quote:Yes, they were Iazyges (which I personally don't think were true Sarmatians
Sorry Alanus, thats why I put Sarmatians in quotes. Just turning to fiction, if you have read it you must cringe at the innacuracies in Gillian Bradshaw's "Island of Ghosts" where an Iazyges warrior is stuck with 500 barbarous Roxolani in which he has to teach them to use contus and long sword like the Iazyges. :lol:
But I may as well suggest that book for your list even though a work of fiction. Only for the fact that someone made the effort to write about Sauromatae/Sarmatians serving in Britain without an A
"Arthurian connection". Although I liked the antagonist Arshak as he to me was more "Sarmatian" he was arrogant, touchy and easily insulted, good with a contus, who else can delicately undo a few knots on a Celtic woman's dress from the back of a horse with a four metre long contus,and he loved to tick the Romans off by proudly wearing his coat covered with Roman scalps he gathered in Marcomannic Wars. She also gives the Sarmatians a mention in another novel "Dark North" set in Britain 208AD where the protagonist meets a roman commander who likes the looks of the Sarmatian horsemen so much he enlisted a few of them as bodyguards. Only a very minor part though.
Anyway yes I see your datalist is growing, I was always thinking of doing some sort of timeline of when these ancient writers met the Sauromate/Sarmatians and what locations.
Anyway good topic
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#28
Don't know if this is already mentioned, btw I love the fibula ...and the whetstone.

http://www.penn.museum/documents/publica...lyshev.pdf
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#29
Hi, Sutoris

A good article by Malyshev and Treister, info on the period when the Sarmatian Sirakes and local Maeotians were merging in the Bosphorus. The akinakes has a blade much like mine. I have a similar ring, except the intaglio is a Mediterranian lobster... evidently owned by a fish dealer. What a shame-- all we have are the trilobate arrowheads: no bow. :neutral:

Yup. That's a damned-nice fibula. Confusedmile:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#30
back to Michael,

Ahh! Ms. Bradshaw got it 180 degrees out! Thanks for the sources, although they are Britain-based novels and paint the Iazyges and Roxolani in diametric extremes.

There has never been a full study on Iaz customs, and I base my conclusions on Janos Harmatta. Somehow, when putting together the original post, I missed this important author.

[attachment=6782]harmattajanos.jpg[/attachment]

Harmatta, who died in 2004, was a Hungarian, a brilliant linguist. He wrote two immportant books, A History of Civilizations in Central Asia, and Studies on the Sarmatian Language (1970). Both histories had an English version, but they are almost impossible to find. I made a print-out of Sarmatian Language years ago, but it's buried somewhere in my mess. :whistle:

[attachment=6783]pic01_146x300.jpg[/attachment]

Well, anyway, Harmatta gives us valuable info on the Roxolani and Iazyges, even though he was not an archaologist. Notably, he had access to information (from earlier Hungarian studies) on the burial practices of these two tribes when they reached the Great Hungarian Plain.

Some modern authors seem to "get it right," while others? :dizzy:
A case in point might be A History of Central Asia: The Age of the Steppe Warriors, published in 2012 by Christoph Baumer. I can't condemn the book because I haven't read it, there are no reviews of it on Amazon, BUT Baumer gives us 9 pages on the "ice burials in the Altai." That's really cutting an important area and culture to the quick. Also, while Baumer writes about the Scythians, he doesn't mention the Saka. I'm suspect of this sort of writing and mentality, which so often links two very distinct cultures into a singular one. :-( If anyone should have this book, we could use an overview.


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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