Mod inaction and the future

[66kbm]

I'm sorry to hear this has happened, we do not need to loose anyone from the Forum. It has happened, so lets learn from OUR...as we are all members of this Forum...mistakes and ensure this does not happen again, valuable info/resources lost. BUT...lets not turn this into a "witch hunt" please.
Kevin

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I'm sorry to hear this has happened, we do not need to loose anyone from the Forum. It has happened, so lets learn from OUR...as we are all members of this Forum...mistakes and ensure this does not happen again, valuable info/resources lost. BUT...lets not turn this into a "witch hunt" please.
Kevin

That's a good point. We need to see what went wrong, and improve our current practices. I've seen where other forums have taken up the proverbial "witch hunt" and crash and burn. Let's not allow that to happen here.

[Squamatus]

Don't panic! No insult perceived at this end. I don't intend to rake up old posts to illustrate my point. Instead I would ask everybody a rhetorical question:

Suppose a guy turned up at a reenactment full of enthusiasm and wanting to join you society, in full kit that wasn't up to your groups standards.

Would you

A - Welcome him, get to know him, and gradually work on getting his kit right in a positive and non derogatory way?

B - Tell him that he can't join in as his kit is wrong. Gossip about him afterwards.

C - Point him out to the rest of your group and laugh at his dreadful kit, pointing out everything that it wrong with it.

If you answered A, that is where RAT aspires to be.
If you answered B, that is where RAT seems to be at.
If you answered C, then all this is falling on deaf ears!

RAT does have some great reference material, and some excellent contributors, but too many 'answer B's with the occasional 'C' thrown in too. Even if you can back your comments up with evidence, that shouldn't make it okay to trash someone else's efforts: Calling someone's wife fat and ugly will rightly get you a black eye from her husband, even if you're not entirely wrong. You wouldn't upset such a lady, so why do you think it's okay to behave like that on here?

It's a great pity that it's taken the loss of one of your long time contributors to raise this issue (as opposed to the historic baiting of nonentities like me, and the countless other people who don't post on here for the same reasons).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Lets just say some of the 'Trolls' have been very quiet over the last year or so.
It does happen, and sadly there are some individuals with an anti over the pond attitude.
It exists, deal with it!

Well the problem seems to be that people don't want to deal with the Anti-Americanism.

The fact that it exists means it must be dealt with. Sometimes it works both ways

I'm an American, and proud to be one. I don't like it when people insult our country. (Now there's a difference between "insult" and "criticize", of course.)

Glad you can see that! :-)

I think that the problem seems to mostly be that there's an overwhelming mis-understanding and misinterpretation of criticisms between the the 2 continents, and also a general misunderstanding of posts.

Not just between the 2 continentS. I've lived here 38 yars and find my words constantly being twisted and turned against me. Not all people who lurk here are doingso for good intent.

I'm no psychologist, in fact I wasn't even innately born with the ability to understand social language and emotions, but I know that this Anti-Americanist interpretation of the site is stemming from something more than mere "trolls."

I didn't say they were, I mentioned both elements....and that they exist! Don't read anything more into what I am saying. 8-)

EDIT: @ M. Demetrius

I haven't read them all, but you seem to have been doing a superb job keeping these negative influences away.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I'm not panicing, don't worry, I always try to express a calm attitude in my post, I just have an analytical and logical thought train so it was a little bewildering to me. It's hard to interpret emotion through text.

But I see your point. I've never seen someone show up rearing and ready to go, in inaccurate kit, but I haven't been around as long as many of you.

EDIT: I was misinformed about the quality of the loaners, appearantly they're much better than I thought. Dangit Josh...

I think that there are some differences in what's considered acceptable though between the US and Europe.

To be honest though, I think a lot of American groups would pick the choice B as well.

Edit: Thanks for clarifying Gaius Julius

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was fortunate to join a group who, after getting over the shock of realising I was a Yank!! :woot: (which I'm not actually, but I have grown accustomed to the insult! :whistle: )
pointed out what kit I had that was good, and that which was not so good!
A great bunch! 8-)

[66kbm]

Still, people have to have thier say, i'm not against that but please, this is RAT, we swap info, we educate those who are not, we help where we can, the loss of Rusty was bad but to coin a better phrase..."Shit happens and allways will"...the less the better on here but we are all human.
Kevin

[M. Demetrius]

I haven't read them all, but you seem to have been doing a superb job keeping these negative influences away.

Evan, I can only take credit for a small percentage of the successful troll interceptions. There are several people who all hunt for things like that, and more who happen across them. Somehow, a few get past our collective net. Be patient if you find something yourself, and don't hesitate to click the "report to moderator" button at the bottom right. We all get an email that details those so handled. One of us usually gets right on it, and if it's a simple fix, we simply fix it. Some things are harder to figure out. Some are really headscratchers, as the mood of the moderators is not to become the Iron Fisted Deleters. (there are days, though --- :x )

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I haven't read them all, but you seem to have been doing a superb job keeping these negative influences away.

Evan, I can only take credit for a small percentage of the successful troll interceptions. There are several people who all hunt for things like that, and more who happen across them. Somehow, a few get past our collective net. Be patient if you find something yourself, and don't hesitate to click the "report to moderator" button at the bottom right. We all get an email that details those so handled. One of us usually gets right on it, and if it's a simple fix, we simply fix it. Some things are harder to figure out. Some are really headscratchers, as the mood of the moderators is not to become the Iron Fisted Deleters. (there are days, though --- :x )

Indeed, yes.

@kevin Mills
I understand that, but let's not forget that the manner in which we exchange said information needs to be kept in a manner to prevent that sort of thing from happening again.

I have a friend who has lots of moderating experience, I will ask him for advice on this in particular. I will return more enlightned on how we should proceed after what has happened here.

[Marcus Mummius]

I for one hope that it will remain possible in the future for RAT members to point out inaccuracies in replicas offered for sale.

If the person who is reviewing an item that is advertised as authentic does this in an objective, polite and scientific manner I think this is of incredible value to the worldwide community. I think Robert did this and he quoted several good sources to back up his arguments. He never attacked a peron or a bussiness, he just questioned the claim of accuracy.

A lot of people come to RAT to learn more about Roman history and material culture. Standards are different from group to group. And it is to every group to set their minimum standard. It should however be allowed to be critical about what is offered for sale as authentical.

A spatha like the one that caused this discussion would not be allowed in my group because there are off the shelf items (same price more or less) that corespond more to the current idea archaeological science has about what a good 1st century spatha looked.

If a person bought this spatha and afterwards was told that he can not use it he would feel bad and have lost money, no matter how cheap the price of the sword he bought.

It might be nicer to throw flowers and praise all the time, but this would not help people increase their knowledge about roman military equipment.

About seven years ago I started out with Roman reenactment and discovered RAT. I must say that I have learned a lot on this forum and from the immensly valuable and often critical and severe contributions of some of it's members. I hope this will not change by heavy censorship!

Valete

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Of course it will still be allowed, the difference is that he did such in a manner that could have been presented better.

That spatha is pretty decent quality for US Re-enactment,which relies heavily on "off the shelf" items because of affordability and other factors.

We do have equipment that's as good as your stuff though, Arklore70 can tell you.

[Marcus Mummius]

There is no problem with using "off the shelf" items. But we should all try our best to convice the providers off these off the shelf items to make them as accurate as possible. Like I said, a lot of off the shelf items could be made much more accurate for the same production cost.

If you know that something is a simplified adapted 'budget' version it should be presented as such IMHO, advertising it as authentic can be very misleading for new people that lack the knowledge to see through that statement.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Of course it will still be allowed, the difference is that he did such in a manner that could have been presented better.

So all this fuss is basically about Robert´s tone? There have frequently been problems in this regard across the pond (I can tell). Europe and the US are more different in many ways than one imagines, and Europe as such is in itself very heterogenous. The US are heterogenous as well, as I read constantly in the newspapers, especially over the last weeks #USelections.

Lets look at Forum Rule #1:

The First Principle on RAT is to respect your fellow community members, eachother's opinions, countries, politics, religions and cultures. RAT is an international community where many members - one of the admins included - do not speak English as their first language. That means that not all cultural references, lingual niceties and national sensitivities are instantly understood by everyone. RAT members need to be aware of this at all times, both when posting (show some tact) and when reading someone else's post (don't be a sensitive flower).

Maybe some communication, I mean initially, would have helped. I am, or rather was, often quite baffled about how something I said / wrote sparked here on RAT reactions I never thought possible. In most cases a direct talk to the other person involved helped a lot. Some explanations, a talk about what was actually meant, etc.
e.g. one time I was not aware of a semantic difference between "sensible" and "reasonable", as there is only one word for both in my language. Some cultures are rather blunt, others are overly polite. It doesn´t (or: didn´t) always help to try to talk things over, I also learned. But it should always be worth an effort, I learned, too. This way I at least was able to come to terms with people who are very different from me and my lifestyle, and they did so, too. Which resulted in respectful and often fruitful communication.

Personally, I think the marketplace reform was a very good thing, and overdue for years. I also think that if one advertises something in a forum which exists to discuss Ancient Armies, their material culture etc.. , one should also be prepared to be involved with a discussion about the advertised item. So the act of advertising may indeed be a good or a bad decision of the advertising party. But the community, in the long run, will always profit from the discussion of the advertised items: Either they will be improved or be taken off the market (or not: #trooper helmet... but we all agree it should disappear, don´t we... ^^)

Cheers!
Your notorious C.

[Robert Vermaat]

Suppose a guy turned up at a reenactment full of enthusiasm and wanting to join you society, in full kit that wasn't up to your groups standards.
Would you
[..]
B - Tell him that he can't join in as his kit is wrong. Gossip about him afterwards.
[..]
If you answered B, that is where RAT seems to be at.
[..]
RAT does have some great reference material, and some excellent contributors, but too many 'answer B's with the occasional 'C' thrown in too. Even if you can back your comments up with evidence, that shouldn't make it okay to trash someone else's efforts: Calling someone's wife fat and ugly will rightly get you a black eye from her husband, even if you're not entirely wrong. You wouldn't upset such a lady, so why do you think it's okay to behave like that on here?
It's a great pity that it's taken the loss of one of your long time contributors to raise this issue (as opposed to the historic baiting of nonentities like me, and the countless other people who don't post on here for the same reasons).

I'm very sorry that you feel that way, but as a long-time member I do not share your opinion of RAT. Yes, we certainly do have very critical members, but these are members, and their opinion does not reflect that of the general forum. If you take it that way, and ignore the opinions of the hundreds of other members that we have, that's a great pity. But in my experience you are incorrect. So many turn up with the wrong kit - I did so myself! Never was I refused to join or anything like that. If some groups do so, that's a pity but you'd have to address that particular group and not the forum. Nor do we (as a forum) boo new members with the wrong kit - generally, they can (if they ask) receive a boatload of tips how to improve it! That's how RAT works, that's how it always worked and that's what the attraction is.

Are there different standard in equipment? Sure there are. Groups differ, countries differ, continents differ. It's a '50 shades of grey' thing (pardon the pun) and some shout louder than others. But that's what a forum is, a collection of individual opinions, and no more. If you don't like what some say, please voice your opinion. If you only post once in 10 years nobody is going to hear you.

Of course you can have a bad experience some day - I do on occasion have these myself, even as a mod (or especially as a mod), but I always remind myself that this is not typical for RAT, as so many positive experiences counterbalance the few bad ones.
As for the 'countless people who do not post here', well, if they do not post how would you know that? ;-) There are lurkers everywhere but that does not mean they don't dare to - my boss told me he's on a forum for more than a decade without posting but enjoying every day there.

Wrapping up, I really think your view of RAT is incorrect. Don't let some individuals spoil your view of a very large group, and if you can, speak out.

[Epictetus]

As an outside observer (I'm not a re-enactor, merely a lover of ancient history), yes, I have seen what I would view as pretty harsh criticism at times. But I think there is, and should be, a distinction between someone who is displaying his kit and someone who is trying to sell something. When money is involved, the standards change, and the seller has to be prepared for tough, even unfair, criticism. It's the nature of business.