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Linothorax again
#16
Well, the question is: is the term "linothorax" a modern description, like the term "lorica segmentata" is, or is the word "linothorax" found in ancient sources?
Pascal Sabas
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#17
My dictionaries -the oldest from 1951- do not mention linothorax.
I tried the Helios encyclopedia 1934 -nothing again but......

The Great Military and Naval Encyclopedia 1928 contains the term LINOTHORAX under the article THORAX (cuirrass)
I have not stumbled upon or I cannot recall ancient texts refering to the term exactly.
You can use the term in Greek as combined word. It is not wrong but my conclusion so far that it is an akademic neologism (new term-coined term) to describe that type of armor.
If some one knows better I will be glad to learn something new.
Kind regards

Stefanos
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#18
It is not a modern term. Homer uses LINOTHOREX [2.529, 2.830]. The Bard describes three different people dressed in this armour: The lesser Aias, Adrestos, and Amphios. Illustrations of this armour indicate a degree of flexibility - especially in the shoulder straps, which strongly suggests that it wasn't made of metal with a linen cover. and if it was made of metal there would be no need to reinforce it with additional metal in the form of scales over the top as is seen in some instances. Personally I think it was made of multiple layers of linen glued together with casein, not resin. A foundation made of multiple layers of linen was used in Egypt for scale armour. An extant example is the leather scale armour found by Carter in Tut's tomb.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#19
A linothorax could easily been made out of 8-9-10 layers of linen or canvas, but with quite a lot variation. The middle class in Greece used a linothorax only made out of linen. The higher classes could reinforce the linen linothorax with metal scale plates at the side, around the middle of sometimes even a linothorax made completely out of scale armour, with the linen shoulder straps and the straps at the bottom of the linothorax.

Greek hoplites preferred the linen linothorax because the flexibility and the weight. Otherwise they had to use the thorax made out of iron or bronze, which was quite heavy compared to the linen linothorax. This was the case from around 500BC untill the end of the Macedonian era.

Quote:Any ancient greek speaking person around?
I'm trying to learn, it would be quite usefull for a reenactor from the Greek ages...
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#20
Heres another one for the mix, the linen armour may have been better protection from archers than bronze. My experiments have shown that 16 layers of linen sewn together will stop an arrow that half a millimeter thick steel wont!

Yes there are many types of linothorax (ancient word) and scales were applied to the outside of many but definatley not all.
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#21
Quote:Heres another one for the mix, the linen armour may have been better protection from archers than bronze. My experiments have shown that 16 layers of linen sewn together will stop an arrow that half a millimeter thick steel wont!

Yes there are many types of linothorax (ancient word) and scales were applied to the outside of many but definatley not all.

Very intersting Jason.
Please advise type of bow and arrows.
The 16 layers were just sewn or glued also?
Bronze and Iron have differnt metalic qualities.
Have you tried bronze plate in the experiments?
That might explain the resistance of the phalanx or thessalian cavalry
Sorry for this qustions bombardment, I just want to know more.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#22
The Royal Armouries concluded that a padded jack (20 layers? - quilted, not glued) worn over mail was proof against a Mary Rose longbow at close range.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#23
Thanks for the info Dan. Very enlightening.
Is supports Jason´s argument.
But I still have the question if there was a qualitative difference between quilted and glued.
Thanks very much though.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#24
Well, I suppose it depends on how much protection was offered by the jack and how much was offered by the mail but I think Jason is on the right track. Personally I think that a 16-20 layer linothorax would be capable of resisting all but the heaviest bows of the time - certainly at battlefield distances. When this armour was first developed I reckon that the most likely threat on the battlefield would have been from arrows. Many of the steppe cultures used a similarly layered construction, only from leather, and arrows would be the greatest threat in these cases also.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#25
The types of bows and arrows i used were a 140 lb longbow and a modern hunting arrow (65 grams) with a steel trilobate head (tradename Bodkin), drawing the bow proved so hard that i ended up sitting on the ground holding the bow with my feet and drawing the string with both hands the linen stopped this easily from about 4 meters (16 feet). I then used a modern compound 60 lbs bow with the same arrow and a modern razor blade hunting head, 24 layers was no match for this and the arrow punched straight through. Interestingly though we doubled the linen over and 48 layers stopped this arrow from the same distance as mentioned above.

I then made up an arrow again with a modern steel head from Arunda Donax reed, one of the types of reeds used in the ancient world, the other was Phragimtes Australis which is lighter and weaker than the Arunda. There was some surprising results. 1. the arrow actually survived being launched from the bows. 2 did not survive contact with the linen armour, self destructed on impact, bits of reed went everywhere.

Both types of arrows went into an old steel mop bucket that i had lying around.

The linen was simply sewn together no gluing involved, I believe the give of the linen has alot to do with the ability of the linen to stop the arrows something that gluing might actually reduce.

More experimenting to follow!
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#26
Thanks Jason!
Very enlightening.
From what you say I start speculate that the ancients relied a lot on the qualities of the material to absorb the arrow force, pretty muck like the modern nylon Kevlar stops pistol-rounds.
Steel arrows you say. Ancients had bronze and iron. That means they would possibly had a lot of difficulties to penetrate. If linen stoped arrows at 4 meters (16 feet) that might explain why the hoplites "steam-rolled" over the archers.
You are about to bring a change in the way armor is viewd!
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#27
Quote:You are about to bring a change in the way armor is viewd!
Not by me ;-) ) I've been pushing this line of argument for years. Hopefully Jason will allow me access to his results when he is finished so I can "refine" my arguments.

It also confirms my suspicions that the bodkin wasn't designed to penetrate armour. It still think its primary purpose was to increase the range of the arrow. If you want to pierce armour the best arrowhead is a compact broadhead made of hardened steel.

Jason, could you try a simple experiment for me? Could you fit two similar arrows with different heads - one with a trilobate bodkin and another with a broadhead (but both with similar weights), and fire them from the same bow, and tell me which flies further.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#28
My experiments have certainly changed the way i look at linen armour, When i first started this investigation i was set to prove that the linothorax was glued layers of linen and not leather! The problem was that i couldnt make glue work, hide glue is just so inflexible the armour would break if you tried to fold it (if you could fold it), I couldnt get milk glue to even work and resins and fish glues all have flexibility problems. The biggest thing however is that the linen did not need gluing to be effective. something that the ancients knew about (curtains hanging below shields) and they dont appear to be glued as do the lower flaps of macedonian linen armours (Alexander mosaic). There is also other glue problems; water solubility, biological attack (it grows fungus really fast if left exposed to air).

I must admit seeing arrows bounce off bits of material really amazed me, you just dont think it will work until you see it happen.
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#29
Dan, The arrowhead (called a bodkin) was its tradename it is actually a large trilobate made from pressed steel weighing 7 grams (i think thats about a third of an ounce or 120 grains i also used a steel broadhead weighing 8 grams (135 grains) both went through the steel mop bucket, both heads were damaged enough for them to not be used again but niether penetrated the linen when shot from the long bow ( I am sad to say that my long bow has since snapped one of its arms and i am going to have to make myself another but i still have the compound bow) as far as wind resistence for these arrowheads just by looking at them i would assume (i know, i know you should not assume anything) that the trilobate will have 1/3 more resistence than the broadhead , but i will check it out!
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#30
Apparently with casein, it can be made waterproof if lime is added to it. How come you are having trouble with glue when other reconstructions did not? What glue did Matt Amt use for his reconstruction? What about Connolly? Another factor that should increase damage resistance a little is to alternate the direction of the "weave" so that the weft and warp run in perpendicular directions on each layer. The same thing can be achieved in leather by having the "grain" of each layer running perpendicular to each other.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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