No Saxon invasion?

[Ron Andrea]

Therefore: migration yes, invasion no.

Armed migration, perhaps. Occasionally cooperating with; occasionally attacking the native population. Such as the Spanish, French and English did in North America . . . as opposed to what they did in Mexico and South America. The big difference is that apparently a substantial number of the Britons survived.

Otherwise your hypothesis beats the "either-or" scenarios.

[Ghostmojo]

... We now return you to your homogenous peaceable worker's paradise...

... or our anarcho-syndicalist collective. I never voted for any of these kings - especially Arthur - flowery aquatic tarts distributing swords from lakes is no basis for government! :lol:

... Britons can indeed have changed their culture under germanic influence: they did so under Roman influence, but it's been a long no-no to even suggest that and supposedly backward heathen Saxons could have any influence on British culture other than forced. Britons aping Germans? Never! :wink:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that (whichever scale of incursion/invasion/immigration you support) the Saxons were outnumbered by the Angles anyway. The Saxons were of course Germanic rather than 'German' (something of a loaded word to Brits since 1914, 1939 and 1966!) and the Angles ... early Danish? The Jutes also came from Denmark and the Frisians from what became the Netherlands so perhaps we should be talking about Dano-Dutch. Then with Danelaw later on - these guys returned. The Danes are supposed to be amongst the happiest people in the world - so who would complain about having them in the bloodline?

[Ron Andrea]

The Danes are supposed to be amongst the happiest people in the world - so who would complain about having them in the bloodline?

As if there's any connection between the current and any or all former inhabitants of the Jutland peninsula. Isn't that part of the point, we keep confusing current inhabitants and mores with ancient people who may or may not have been related.

[authun]

Many of these programmes are highly selective with the research evidence they use. I haven't seen the series mentioned but watched Pryor's Britain AD. It simply omitted some of the important scientific research or failed to explain fully what the research that they did use accurately.

West Heslerton is one example which usually appears in these programmes as it is an early Anglo Saxon settlement. When using isotopic evidence, it is vital that the actual immigrants are studied as the offspring of immigrants look 'local'. Furthermore, using Oxygen isotopes alone is likely to be inconclusive as the expected values from many parts of Jutland and the northern Germany are the same as many parts of England. There is no way to tell the difference. In addition, there is a variance around the expected local value but it was not known when Paul Budd did his analysis at Heslerton, how large the variance is, blurring the difference between a local and non local.

Normally, studies try to triangulate 3 types of isotopes, Oxygen, Strontium and Lead. Together with grave goods, these can give a good point of origin for the immigrant. Rarely however, has this been achieved in practice.

One multidisciplinary study which threw a great deal of light on West Heslerton was Janet Montgomery's "Continuity or colonization in Anglo-Saxon England? Isotope evidence for mobility, subsistence practice, and status at West Heslerton". The abstract makes the claim: "no clear support for the exclusively male, military-elite invasion model at this site.". Many people who cite these studies only read the abstract and not the study itself and the above statement is ambiguous. Hence you get statements such as the following: "Strontium, oxygen and lead isotopes were used to show that the Early Anglo-Saxon population at West Heslerton was predominantly of British origin." Reading the actual study however, the picture looks very different:

22 out of 324 graves were examined. The first thing to do was date the graves. Two calibrations were used to give the widest spread between the upper and lower limits. The results were:

22 samples using the earliest possible phase
I (450–500 AD) 4 local 7 non local
II (500–550 AD) 5 local 3 non local
III (550–600 AD) 2 local 1 non local

The same 22 samples using the latest possible phase
II (500–550 AD) 2 local 3 non local
III (550–600 AD) 6 local 5 non local
IV (600–650 AD) 3 local 3 non local

Both show that immigrants arrived throughout a 150 year period. Using the earliest calibration, most arrived in the first phase, ie Period I. The latest calbration indicates chain migration. At this point we don't know where the non locals came from. It is also worth remembering that the ratio between immigrants and locals should normally be weighted heavily in favour of the locals. If 2 immigrants have 2 children who each go on to have 2 children etc, by the 6th generation there should be 64. If all these are buried in the same graveyard, we should have 126 graves. 2 of these 126 should look non local and the other 124 should look local, even though they are descended from the original 2 immigrants. Both dating ranges above show 50% non local which means there is a very high chance that the other 50% are descendants of immigrants.

Next, the grave goods. West Heslerton is rare amongst early migration period cemetaries in England because of the nature of its distinctive 'anglian' female dress accessories, (ie cruciform, square-headed, and small-long brooches, bucket pendants, braids, and wrist-clasps) found in the graves strongly suggest links with both Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany and Scandinavia, specifically western Norway and southern Sweden.

The three burials containing wrist-clasps among the grave assemblage (G89, G97, and G173) all fall into the nonlocal group. Hines (1984) regarded this functional sleeve fastener as the artifact most likely to indicate the presence of immigrants from Norway among burial populations.

G122, a nonlocal juvenile, is an early phase II jewellery burial and contained a mid-5th century brooch, the only equal-armed brooch found at West Heslerton. The distribution of the generic form is restricted to Norway and Sweden, and this specific type is believed to originate from a Norwegian source.

G78 and G84 (local) contained the earliest cruciform brooches (early 6th century) found at West Heslerton, as well as early 6th century Scandinavian-style small-long brooches.

All three burials containing cruciform brooches were nonlocal.

Local burials included G159 and G154, which were accompanied by a single amber bead, indicative of an early burial during this period (Haughton and Powlesland, 1999b). G139 (local) contained a scutiform pendant dating from the beginning of the 5th century. These pendants are believed to be amulets with some religious, rather than just decorative or functional, significance. As a consequence, they are considered to demonstrate the movement of ideas and beliefs, and therefore possibly people, form western Norway (Hines, 1984). This example is a type that is known from Migration Period Norway and Denmark, first appearing around the beginning of the 5th century.

The distribution of graves suggests that people were buried in family groups. The reason why Montgomery asserts that there is no evidence for a male military elite is because there are also three osteologically sexed females buried with weapons (G144, G164 and G184). Interestingly, neither G144 nor G164 were young adults and Cox refers to G144 as “elderly” (1999, 185). Both females had extensive caries, periodontal disease and severe tooth attrition, G164 had severe osteoarthritis and G144 bilateral fusion of the distal humeri and proximal ulnae, effectively immobilising both elbow joints. G98 is that of a young child, buried with a spear and a knife. There were several male weapon burials with spears and shields but only one (G74) contained a sword. G74 was buried with a rare design of pattern-welded sword, two spears, a shield and a knife. Swords are infrequent finds in Anglian cemeteries and this one was of a very unusual snake design running down the blade which has not been seen amongst the Anglo-Saxon pattern welded swords so far discovered in England.

The general picture is one of families, with moderate wealth, not high status elites, coming to and settling in, West Heslerton.

In a separate article published in Antiquity, a conference of some 50 archaeologists hosted by Rahtz concluded: "Although DP [Dominic Powlesland] stressed his own belief in continuity, it was generally seen more as one of continuity of place, with a dichotomy between ‘late Romans’ and the new settlers". The archaeologist Frances Pryor used in his Britain AD programme was of course the one dissenting voice, Dominic Powlesland.

These programmes are invariably arguing a case and are selective with the evidence they present.

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authun

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I'm 100% postive there was no Saxon invasion...I was down in England and I didn't see them at all.... :mrgreen:

[authun]

There's a big difference between an invasion and a migration.
...

Therefore: migration yes, invasion no.

Haio Zimmermann's paper, "Favourable conditions for cattle farming, one reason for the Anglo-Saxon migration over the North Sea?" would sit well with this scenario. People migrating in search of a better or easier life is a motivation which can be demonstrated even today. His argument is that Britain's warmer winter climate meant that cattle could be outwintered much longer in Britain than on the continent which meant that there was less of a requirement to grow fodder during the summer for winter stabling.

[url:lw5t0qzg]http://www.nihk.de//downloads/5/favourable_conditions_for_cattle_farming.pdf[/url]

In places like West Heslerton, people appear to have moved into an area once inhabited by the romano britons but now deserted. Migration into the area appears to have been throughout a 150 year period. One aspect of West Heslerton that I find interesting is that all the quernstones are imported from the Eifel area, from the quarries north of the Moselle river near its confluence with the Rhine. There are no quernstones from the Pennines which had been producing them continually from the neolithic until the 19th cent.

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authun

[Matthew Amt]

Harry, I think I love you. Great post. Thank you!

Matthew

[john m roberts]

I think they immigrated to get the free medical care.

[Ron Andrea]

"Free medical care" as in battlefield mercy? :wink:

[authun]

Harry, I think I love you. Great post. Thank you!

Glad you found the info interesting. Would prefer it if you saved your kisses for Janet Montgomery though.

There are quite a few papers around which never seem to get mentioned in the media. One I found recently was published in Antiquity Journal, "New light on the Anglo-Saxon succession: two cemeteries and their dates".

This concerns the dating of two neighbouring cemeteries in the Thames valley, Queenford Farm, a romano british cemetery and Berinsfield, an anglo saxon cemetery. Earlier dating showed that both were in use during the 5th and 6th centuries suggesting that the two communities lived side by side. The new dating techniques however suggest that main use of Queenford Farm was in the 4th and 5th cents. whilst the main use of Berinsfield was in the 5th and 6th cents. Although there is a small overlap, Berinsfield appears to have succeeded Queenford Farm and was not contemporary with it. Another interesting aspect it that isotopic analysis shows that Berinsfield had a different diet to that of Queenford Farm.

It is hard to tell what is going on other than the romano british community goes into decline whilst the anglo saxon community is in the ascendency. There are no indications as to why this may be. What is interesting is that the start of the decline in the romano british community is before the advent of the anglo saxon community and it may support Härke's view that in some cases the anglo saxons moved into an empty landscape.

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[authun]

According to the British documentary, The Celts - The Complete Epic Saga (2010, 6 episodes total 303 minutes) there is no evidence of any invasion by the Saxons or other Germanics. The farmsteads of SE Britain showed no archaeological evidence of anything except for continuous occupation and the isotopes gathered from skeletal remains of the era show no influx of people from northern Germany or Denmark. They explain the adoption of the English language as a voluntary act by the British to fit in with the people of influence and power. The documentary also states that the Saxon shore forts were not built to repulse invasion because there is no evidence that any of them were ever attacked, rather they were build and used as centers of commerce and trade. The 'myth' of Saxon invasion was perpetrated by historians and writers who lived long after the era.

I posted earlier about the isotopic studies at West Heslerton. You can also add the Oxygen isotope study undertaken by Susan Hughes on the Saxon cemetery at Eastbourne which spanned the period 450-550 AD. 25% of the inhumations came from the Continent and as the cemetary spans 4 generations, with such a high number of immigrants, it is highly likely that the rest are descendents of the original incomers. Also, it must be remembered that cremation was a continental custom, so we don't get isotope results from those. The cremation urns however are distinctly Continental.

I'm not too sure who the programme makers have in mind when they say that Britons adopted the English language as a voluntary act to fit in with the people of influence and power. Where have these people with influence and power come from? Again, it is not just the spoken language. Runes appear, specifically runes using the elder futhark most commonly found in Jutland, in places like Illerup and Nydam. Although evidence of ogham is scant for the roman period, it does exist. The Caistor-by-Norwich astralagus (5th cent.) has an entirely danish runic alphabet using the single cross staved 'h' rather than the double staved 'h' of the later anglo frisian runic alphabet and still contains evidence of proto germanic in the 'eihwaz' rune. Are we to believe that not only did the Britons change their spoken language, but they also changed their written language? In addition, we see the introduction of the Grübenhaus. Whilst it may be believable that Britons adopted new germanic fashions in terms of jewellery etc, language, writing, funeral rites and building are harder to explain away simply as 'fashion'. Maybe the Britons went into decline because they spent too little time growing food and spent too much time reconstructing proto germanic and scratching scandinavian runes on animal bones. I don't believe that a man carving runes on a deer bone fits the image of the people with 'influence and power'.

Whilst it may be true that the shore forts show no sign of attack, the signal stations along the Yorkshire coast certainly do. 13 bodies were thrown down the well at the Huntcliffe signal station. Two bodies were found in the remnants of a fire in another such signal station in Yorkshire. The fort at Malton was sacked and had to be rebuilt and its vicus was raised to the ground. It's quite untrue to claim that there are no signs of violence.


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authun

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks for that information Athun, sound more credible, and realistic.

[Ghostmojo]

Happy New Year and Happy New Decade everybody!

I'm glad this thread has been revived. I have just finishing reading Bryan Sykes book Blood of the Isles and am curious to know what you fine scholarly people think of his work, his website, his analysis and conclusions - such as they are? From what I remember of his summation, the Anglo-Saxon (and later Danish) 'invasions' certainly had their effect - but not to the extent that some propose. Significant yes, but not overwhelming. If his genetically based research is to be accepted, the bedrock of the British populace (either through matrilineal or patrilineal routes) is still largely pre-Roman 'celtic' (in fact older) or if you prefer, Ancient Briton - even in the areas which were supposedly Angle or Saxon dominated or thoroughly purged of previous occupants.

I suspect that both Pryor and Sykes would see the story as being somewhat mixed with examples of both extremes being likely/certain in some select areas, and every variation in between elsewhere. I would guess (and it is a guess) that Gildas' apocalytic view was perhaps based upon examples of the worse case scenarios which did occur in specific cases - but not everywhere.

[authun]

I'm glad this thread has been revived. I have just finishing reading Bryan Sykes book Blood of the Isles and am curious to know what you fine scholarly people think of his work, his website, his analysis and conclusions - such as they are? From what I remember of his summation, the Anglo-Saxon (and later Danish) 'invasions' certainly had their effect - but not to the extent that some propose. Significant yes, but not overwhelming. If his genetically based research is to be accepted, the bedrock of the British populace (either through matrilineal or patrilineal routes) is still largely pre-Roman 'celtic' (in fact older) or if you prefer, Ancient Briton - even in the areas which were supposedly Angle or Saxon dominated or thoroughly purged of previous occupants.

Sykes, along with Oppenheimer, wrote their books based on the 'Basque hypothesis' ie. that the major western european Haplogroup R1b was in the Cantabrian Refugium during the ice age. That was a shaky hypothesis even then and was dismissed by researchers such as Santos Alonso. Even Jim Wilson, a proponent of the 'Basque Hypoethesis', stated at the time that new important information was being discovered about R1b and that the picture was about to change.

R1b is the major haplogroup in Western Europe ranging from 30% - 80% in areas from Scandinavia to Iberia and Germany to Ireland. There was no real way of telling whether or not someone in England who had R1b was a pre roman Celt or a Germanic invader, or a Gaul or a Viking. You can see the distribution here:
[url:1ects432]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R1bmap.JPG[/url]

Although ancient yDNA is difficult to extract, 7th cent. graves from Ergolding in Bavaria revealed 4 people with R1b with close matches in the modern populations in Germany and Ireland. It shows that looking at R1b in England, in the way that Oppenheimer and Sykes did and then assuming that it must be indigenous to England, is insecure. There is a good chance that they came with the anglo saxons, or celts or whoever.

Since 2006, many different SNPs have been discovered under R1b. They are given labels such as R1b1b2a1a1 or R1b1b2a1a2, also known as U106 and P312 respectively. Even then, P312 can be split into more subclades, eg. R1b1b2a1a2c, R1b1b2a1a2d etc. This is what Wilson was hinting at. The techniques used to tell the difference in the days of Sykes and Oppenheimer were crude and based on 6 STRs in the case of Oppenheimer or based on 12 STRs in the case of Sykes. Today, when measuring 67 STRs is common, it is still often impossible to predict the precise SNP. To know the exact SNP, one has to test for it and many are still waiting to be discovered. Even though we can, through testing, assign a more descriptive SNP to an individual, it is still not yet clear where these SNPs originated. All we see are distribution patterns in modern populations. We more or less know now that they entered europe during the Neolithic and therefore do not represent the European paleolithic, but that's about as far as we have gone. People look at the many distribution patterns and make up all sorts of fanciful theories. Some subclades of R1b can be identified with geographic locations, but these represent small numbers of people. P312 and U106 more or less account for 110 million western europeans and all we really know is that a large number of people with markers belonging to the R1b 'supergroup' entered europe during the neolithic.

The Peoples of the British Isles project are due, sometime, to publish the results of their study of about 4200 people in Britain. It is primarily a medical study and so looks at autosomal DNA because of their interest in genetically inherited diseases but they have taken the opportunity to test for SNPs as well. We'll have to see what they come up with.

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authun

[Martin Wallgren]

And still we have this thread in a Germano/latin language and not a "Celtic" language!