Tweak my T&Y (linothorax/spolas) pattern, ca 500bc

[Daniel S.]

Inspired by the discussions and how-to threads here at the forum I've gotten a tube and yoke pattern down on paper. I've been particularly inspired by these threads: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=25944">viewtopic.php?f=63&t=25944<!-- l and <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=29502">viewtopic.php?f=63&t=29502<!-- l . I really like the type of corselets that I've seen depicted around 500bc with what appears to be more flaring pteruges and with scales around the abdomen.

I have only ever done European medieval armour so understanding what style is 'right' for hoplite armour is rather difficult. I therefore attach some pictures on 500bc t&y and some of my sketches in this post. In the next I will attach the pattern as I've gotten it so far. I would really appreaciate any comments that can help me tweak my pattern more towards the concept.

[Daniel S.]

And here is the paper-pattern so far.

[Daniel S.]

And a couple of more views.

The main issue that I can see so far is that the pteruges are too long. I couldn't sit without sitting on them (if I had made patterns for the back yet..). The problem is that I'm not sure if I should move the waistline higher or cut the pteruges shorter? The wastline is now at the natural waist/navel.

The other issue is that the pteruge section at the side is flaring too much -- so the sections don't meet eachother correctly with the right flow. I'm thinking that the best idea would be to decrease the flaring on the side pteruges?

[Matthew Amt]

Khaire!

Heck, looks better than mine! I'd say you're on the right track. The pteruges don't look horribly long, but yeah, if they seem to be, I'd shorten the *body* an inch or two and see how that works. Not sure what to tell you about the flair, but easy enough to make a second set of paper ones with a different shape. That's why we make patterns, eh?

Great work!

Matthew

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think that it's the pteryges you should shorten a bit. Also,i think that you should completely rework the pattern of them. I think best that they are cut in one piece. This piece should be straigh,because when the body will be folded and tied,the lower hem will naturally be straight. The pteryges however can naturally open (this is their purpose),so there is no need to be cut with that curve.
Christian made his pteryges in different sections,like you plan to,but he now plans to replace them because they don't sit well.

Another suggestion is to make the neck guard a bit higher. Also,make the back flaps longer and narrower. It might be advisable to make the shoulder flaps also slightly longer. And it's better to make them a bit bigger so that you can trim them down if necessary,than too short.
Khaire
Giannis

[Daniel S.]

Matthew -- Thanks for the encouragement! Based on what you and Giannis are saying I will try both shortening the body a tad and take a bit off from the pteruges and see what looks the best.

Giannis -- Yes, I've been a bit uncertain about the back. I definitely agree that I should make the neck guard higher. Concerning the flaps, I have thought about making them pointy like the front flaps -- otherwise I'll modify them per your suggestion.

I can also see the point in removing the flair from the pteruges themselves -- the only thing I'm not entirely certain about is removing the flaring from the top part of the pteruges. I'm talking about that the lower abdomen section underneath the scale section, before the pteruges separate. This part is what I find particularly compelling with the 500bc style as it seems that it can allow for a more of shaped waist. And to get that there needs to be some flaring (well, that's how I interpret it). A compromise would be to keep some flaring in that top section and straighten all the separate pteruges as you advised (thanks for the heads up on Christian's problem with the different sections). I'll see if I can get that compromised version down on paper and see how it works.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm not sure i understood what you are about to do with the pteryges.
I had though a lot about that curve in the belly and if it represented a real characteristic. After lookind at many vases and sculptures though i noticed that there is a flare depicted not only on frontal views but also side views. For example see Achilles' side. The pteryges form a curve, although Patroclus' pteryges also form a curve,even if it's in the belly area. I have come to believe that the only thing that actually existed was a space between the pteryges and the lower hem of the body. Like you have noticed too. But that part had to have the same lenght all around,and the flaring is just an artistic illusion.
Christian also tried to represent this,and i think he will now say that he's not happy with the result.
Khaire
Giannis

[Daniel S.]

Ah, ok, now I see what you mean and now I understand that I didn't make myself clear. If you look at one of the photos where my pattern is layed out you can see that I didn't represent the flaring the way Christian did. He had the upper pteruge-section with a straight edge and the lower section with a curve. I agree that the end result from that is at risk of diverting from the motives on the vases.

So, my interpretation is to have the same curve on both the upper and the lower edge of that upper pteruge section. The result when it meets the main body can be a subtle flairing. (This is similar to how some 14th and 15th century armour and arming garments were taylored to get the wasp-waist going.) In this version however, I think I overdid it as the separate pteruges flair out too much. I'm working on another pattern that will have the pteruges themselves straighter and where the front, back, and sides fit better together.

Thanks!

[Daniel S.]

(Just to clarify from where I draw inspiration: The upper part of my pattern comes from the Achilles and Patrokles kylix (but with less scales) and the lower part comes from the arming seven heroes scene. That's why I want the pteruges as long as possible.. )

I haven't finished updating the pattern yet but I have experimented with scales. I did one crudely dished; one curved with a small ridge; and one with no significant curve but a more acute ridge (although both look the same in the pic..). The last has the little bump that the seven heroes seem to sport. I interpret it as a high point in the metal rather than a rivet head, just because I can't see no real need for a rivet in that place in scales that hang downwards.

I would appreciate any feed-back on which design or design combination that appears to give the most strength, is easiest to work with, or which seems to best represent ca 500bc. From my rudimentary experiments the little bump and the sharp ridge are easy to do whereas the curved is more difficult and the dished one is the most difficult. If I go with the dished I would probably have to make a two-piece mould to assist in dishing.

The dimensions of the scales are 2.5 * 5 cm (0,5 mm thick), or for the metrically challenged, about 1 times 2 inches (don't know what the thickness is in American as I am gauge/inch/feet challenged).

[Daniel S.]

Now I have changed the pattern and also made the backing for the scales and the upper breast section. I decided to make the backing from linen as I have some from previous projects. All visible parts of the corselet will be vegetable tanned leather. The main changes I did are:

1) Lowered the upper part of the breast section so the decorated border is lowered. I also changed the shape of this piece.
2) Shortened the body all around, more to the sides and the most in the back. This gives a better fitting profile that helps the hips relieve more of the weight.
3) Lenghtened the shoulder piece in the back and made the shoulder flaps longer and more narrow. I also made the neck guard higher.
4) Widened the shoulder piece on the shoulders and in front of the shoulders. I also made them a tad longer and improved the shape. I ideally want to fasten the shoulders in the decorated border so that's why I can't make them any longer than this unless I change the location of the point.
5) Shortened the pteruges. I gave the top section of the pteruges I less acute shape. All the individual pteruges have the same shape with some space in between them (I might decrease that space a bit before cutting it out in leather). Now I think the pteruges give the silouette I want.

Thanks for the comments so far and please let me know if something else needs to be changed before I move on with the project

[Daniel S.]

And here are the patterns laid out in case anyone is interested in going this route.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Good!!! This is much improvement. I can't wait to see it finished.
Here are my suggestions: Leave some space between the neck guard and the shoulder flaps,so that the shoulders are alwasy the same width. It may look wrong,but when the pteryges are pulled down,this space is invisible. Also,i have checked this detail in the Mars of Todi statue and in a skythian scale t&y and it's there in both. It will much relieve your neck!
I would also shorten the pteryges slightly more,like two cm.
Last, i suggest you try to find a convincing way to whiten the leather. There are a number of leather cuirasses out there,very few of which are white,and this is a bit sad,because whenever artists decided to use colour,they almost always "chose" white,and this is not represented in re-enactors today.
Keep us updated and good luck!
Khaire
Giannis

EDIT: I also think the old hight of the back cover was better. It's better to be attached a bit high,although most re-enacotrs have a tendency to place it too low. For this it needs to be shorter.

[Daniel S.]

Thanks Giannis -- again some really helpful comments! I will look into the length of the pteruges again but I thought I had gotten them to where i wanted them (luckily that's the easiest thing to remedy). I think i agree on the length of the back cover and will go back over the pictures I'm using and see if I can improve the look.

As to the colour I want to go with white if I can find a good way of pulling it off. I remember reading a comment here about using something like beeswax and some source for white pigment powder (I've got some aluminum oxide lying around?). I'll try to locate that thread. My second best option is to just dye it dark-red.

Could you please explain again your first comment about the distance between the neck guard and shoulder straps? As I understood it you meant that I can increase that distance to more than I have now (now its about 5-7 mm)? And that the shoulder straps should be of even width from the neck, over the shoulders and down (as I have them now they are tapered).

/Daniel

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes,i mean that about the shoulder flaps. Keeping the overal width of the shoulder pice just under the neck, you should decrease the width of the shoulder flaps so that it is not tappered but even,to the same width as they are near the tieing point. Keeping the width of the neck guard the same,this should create a distance between the base of the shoulder flaps and the neck guard.

The pteryges on the dressing scene vase are a bit stylised. You'll understand this if you measure the proportions of their legs compared to their body. Thus they appear longer than they probably were. Your pteryges don't seem unacceptably long,but personally i would shorten them a bit. As a hint,my pteryges (without the space i have left between them and the waist band) are just 14,5 cm long. And i would never do them any longer in my quirass,if i still wanted that space between the pteryges and the waist band.
Khaire
Giannis

[Daniel S.]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll see how I can improve the shoulders.

The individual pteruges in the top layer are 18cm long so before cutting the leather I'll go over them once more.

/Daniel