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I'll even make the first posting- here's a photo of my test attempt at shaping a 5th-4th centuries BCE Greek muscled cuirass (front)- obviously it's rather harder to make in thick copper alloy, so I thought to begin with thin sheet steel (0.65mm) to work out just how to form the musculature. It's based on some of the beautiful examples from the ex-Guttmann collection and one from the Metropolitan Museum in New York. It's incomplete since it is just a test- no need to do the whole thing once various parts are understood. One day I hope to have the time to get on with the copper alloy example using what I learned here- and really this is the first Greek piece I've tried so is all I have to present here in the new section :wink:
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Great job! I really like the overall shape and abs musculature, it feels realistic as opposed to many recreated cuirasses I have seen so far (especially some Indian ones), which look very artificial. Please keep us updated on your future attempts and I hope we will see more Greek pieces made by your skilled hands soon.
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
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In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough
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Matt, that looks great!
How thick does the metal need to be? Ones I've seen in the BM seem pretty thin.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Nice work Matt! I'll have one once the bugs are ironed out!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Thanks guys- I've always been fascinated by this type of piece and it was pretty cool to at least come close on the first try :wink: The trick is that the abdomen must be shrunk, not dished. Actually, rather a lot of work has to be done from the outside and less than one might think from the outside. Virtually ever other reproduction I've seen is simply dished a lot, hence looking completely wrong and terribly articificial. The real techniques necessary take much more time and skill thus making a correct version perhaps not easy enough for commercial production.
Jim- I actually have no information at all about thickness- it's a dimension few seem to consider important reporting, and yet it's probably more telling about an object than anythings since it speaks not only to mass, but production method, cost and more. I'm hoping that by the time I'm ready to try it for real, I'll find someone who has at least some real thickness data.
I guess I might as well ask now before the section becomes full of other cool stuff LOL Does anyone know how thick any particular examples of this type of Greek armour are?
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Great work! I'd be interested in seeing more details about the techniques you mention, rather than dishing.
You're right that there seems to be a taboo against measuring or weighing Greek armor! I made a Bronze Age cuirass from c. 18-gauge metal, about 1mm thick (at most), and it weighs 9 pounds. A few years ago Dave Michaels posted about an original cuirass his company had, and the total weight was 5.25 pounds (3 lbs for the breastplate, 2.25 lbs for the backplate). So 1mm on average is too thick! Granted, that's just one example, but I'm willing to bet...
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... c&start=20
A fascinating study on how we're still arguing some of the same points...
Khaire,
Matthew
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Awesome work Matt. That is exactly what the market needs...Greek and Roman!
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Thanks Matts
Yeah, I'm finding Greek stuff more and more interesting- it's all nearly more 'art' than 'function' so is especially appealing. Roman stuff is more decorated functional, so they compliment each other well.
Once I have more specifics worked out and when I get to trying a true copper alloy piece, I'll definitely take lots of 'in-process' photos possibly for a paper on the project. In simple terms though, the 'shrinking' I'm meaning is just reverse dishing- look at the abdomen: the right side is very hammermarked as you can see, while the left is still 'bulging'- I hammered (from the front) in the clefts for the various muscle definition points with a raising hammer on edge (a narrow cross pein would do the same thing), and over slightly convex WOOD form (just a piece of 4x4 fencepost), I used a my blacksmith's cross pein hammer (very slightly rounded face, about 5cm/ 2" diameter) and hammered the bulging areas from the perimeter in to flatten them. One could look at it as dishing save that instead of forming a concave surface, I'm flattening a convex one. Of course instead of stretching the metal, this is shrinking it. The wood form serves as a soft but reflective surface that allows the piece to remain curved and slightly convex where desired- plus you can shape it to however you need it, which is more difficult with steel :wink:
It's wild that that cuirass Dave posted about is only 5.25lbs- it must be pretty thin to be sure; I had considered using 1.6mm thick metal but maybe that's not such a hot plan LOL Some edges of extant examples don't have the look of being rolled and flared, but clearly many are, so there's no help there. It's a shame that so many of the ex-Guttmann pieces are already sold, and the one currently on offer is described as having been stabilized with fibreglass, so measurement or weight may not be so accurate (if the auction house would even give them to non-bidders LOL).
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I did keep some more process photos of the test piece and this shows what I meant- define the 'muscles' then hammer them down:
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Matt.
I wonder if you have considered the use of Gilding metal for in the past I've used this myself, don't ask me for the metalurgic breakdown of this stuff but it's such a nice soft bronze to work with.
Here are some pictures of the one I made for the late Doug Arnold who was at one time with the IIAVG UK
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... cur111.jpg
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... cur112.jpg
This particular one is a one from a statue of Drusus that is shown in the H. R. Robinson, I do know what you mention about the abdoman working however this is a short one that can be worn on horseback. This one took some time as it had to travel the whole length of England a few times for fittings but I got there in the end, it was not my first go as I had made a couple in brass prior to this and paid a lot for very soft brass.
Brian Stobbs
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Gilding metal is very low zinc brass- just 5%- so it's nearly copper, explaining its softness. I can't even easily obtain red brass so that stuff's surely out of the question here- but it's okay, annealed yellow brass isn't hard to work- not now that I'm used to working iron (I mean for swords, etc., not the test sheet steel here :wink: ) I'm trying to source some actual phosphor bronze, although that's not so easy to find either...
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Did you try Metal Supermarkets Matt? What about that Online metal supplier on Matt Amt's supplier's page?
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This looks impressive at this stage.Just don't "over polish" it to make it look too modern, and it could be one of the most impressive modern hand made pieces I have seen.
All best
Aleksandar Nikic
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Oh yes, Aleksander, I'm well aware of that little issue :wink:
Metal Supermarkets is where I get my steel locally- their 'red metals' stock is limited to yellow brass and copper, and even specific copper alloy producers have little in the way of red brasses or bronzes (in sheet form), so resellers usually aren't of any use. I go to Alaskan Copper and Brass locally, and even they don't produce much other than yellow brass in copper alloys. There's one jeweler supply place in the US that does sell sheet bronze so someone must make it, but I have no idea who and the price for little squares from that place is extremely high- but that's the way with jewelry supply, or medical supply or any other specialty supply- the price goes up an order of magnitude from everyday sources for the same things LOL But I'm not actively searching anyway- this is a future project. It won't matter much about the actual metal until the question of thickness is at least reasonably worked out...
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Well, It is quite expensive in Aberdeen too, £1000+ plus for a 1" x 1' x 1' sheet.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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