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I thought you meant frogs in segs.... :roll:
The helmet is cut off Christian, but there appears to be something
on the top which could be part of the eyebrow, but could just as easily be a scribble, or a lunate decoration......
Is it from the Miks book?
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Off topic, but...
Quote:Is it from the Miks book?
Quote:Gustin, M, Posocije in der jüngeren Eisenzeit. Catalogi et monographiae 27, Ljubljana, 1991.
It's also reproduced in Michel Feugere's Weapons of the Romans p207 and Robinson 1975, 53-5) Robinson Gallic E type IIRC
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Thanks, I'll look when I get home.
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Cristian I think that on the subject of probability of cloak variant to belt variant we shall have to agree to disagree.
Brian Stobbs
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Well, yes we can do that, but that´s not too fruitful. Discourse would be more helpful in finding out what these objects are.
I just wonder where the cloak-closer hypothesis comes from, and what evidence there is for it?
*edit*: Going back to the Idrija pri Baci Grave: What would that guy do with the button-loop fasteners? He already has two nice fibulae, two expensive and nice fibulae, that is. Why should he close his cloak with the two cheap and undecorated button-loop thingies?
Christian K.
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I use both fibula and buttons on my cloak and scarf, Christian.
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The Camomile Street soldier statue from London shows a paunula with two button fasteners and two toggle type fasteners.
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... breast.htm
There is a small bronze toggle from Chester (Diva) which was associated with clothing.
![[Image: button.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/button.jpg)
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That looks good. But the object is quite different from the button-loop fasteners IMO. Much smaller, and formed differently (mini-loops), We also have to keep in mind that there are different types of cloak. A sagum will certainly go with a fibula. A paenula is different. Some seem to have been sewn together at the front completely (Junkelmann), and this example seems to show a mix, where the upper part of the opening was closed with what may be these objects seen on the Camomile Street soldier.
Christian K.
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I have wooden toggles and buttons in a similar setup on my paenula.
Also have one with horn toggles and buttons.
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Like on a Duffle Coat? 
Christian K.
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The idea is ageless I guess!
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Here are links to just some of the button loop fasteners I have in my collection, with a one I have reproduced, these are of larger type with discs of around 40mm diameter.
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... hal069.jpg
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... hal070.jpg
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... hal071.jpg
Brian Stobbs
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I was just talking on the phone to Prof. Ubl, who first published the Idrija pri Baci findings. He said that from the position in the grave it is absolutely clear that the button-loop fasteners were used to attach the sword to the belt. He also said that it was unquestionable to him that this group of objects were just this: sword fasteners. Apparently they are quite common in La Tène contexts together with swords, and he said that there are also Late Roman and early medieval parallels. He´s going to send me a copy of his excavation notes in the next weeks (the copy shop in his hometown closed down, and he needs to go somewhere else to make them), as well as his sketches of the helmet.
*edit* we should also call it the Ubl-method, not the Miks-method, for it happened quite often that people read some of the hard-to get Prof.-Ubl publications (Austria) and re-sold the idea again in Germany. IMO the man owns some credit. I don´t want to say that C. Miks did that, but other archaeologists definitely did so several times.
Very nice pieces, Brian!
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Good to see you have the picture posting down Brian.
I have some of Brians pieces , they are indeed very nice.
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I was just looking at the Camomile Street soldier again.
I recognized that the sculptor underwent the effort of even showing the seams of the cloak along the edge where it is held together. this made me wonder why the buttons would cross all three lines on the stone. If the closing mechanism would have been button-loops, then surely the "knob" would be only on one side. Isn´t it rather probable that we are seeing two small fibulae here? I made a crude drawing to show what I mean:
Christian K.
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Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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![[Image: smallparmarat.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/smallparmarat.jpg)
