How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)

[Peroni]

Looking through the Vindonissa catalogue last night..
(Christopher Unz and Eckhard Deschler-Erb: Katalog der Militaria aus Vindonissa, 1997. )

There are lots of button fasteners in there!

One in particular has a larger flat disc and has been catalogued with the pugio frogs - however it has no hinge-tube. It is very similar to the one found with the belt being discussed here.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Yes, Adrian, there are a lot of them. All the military sites have lot of such fasteners, so it's possible that there are a strong connexion with a military function.

Some of that fasteners have the button in a way to be used vertically respect the loop. So, the loop hangs vertically.

That buttons have some decoration (heads of emperors, etc) that implies the loop are positioned vertically.

[Peroni]

It is a very practical piece of equipment with no doubt many uses and functions from clothing fsteners to military equipment use.

After all - how many of us have opened a tin of paint with a screwdriver? not its intended purpose

[PhilusEstilius]

I have given some thoughts to the theory put forward by Dr. Christian Miks, and having checked out his stud in comparison to some that I have it begins to give me serious doubts it would work as a sword hanger at all.

[Crispvs]

Well of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so one of us should bite the bullet and try it out to see how effective a method it really is. Did you get the article open by the way Brian?

Completely off topic here but speaking of puddings, I have an easy Christmas pudding recipe if anyone wants one. :wink:

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

I was still unable to get it open even trying what you suggested. If as you say trying it out may prove or not this theory that has been put forward, might come from what John Kaler has put forward with repros'. I would however stress yet again what my answer was on those repros', they are not what Miks has put forward and I would doubt very much if they are cast bronze at all.

[Crispvs]

I wouldn't rule out cast copper-alloy. Many pugio frogs were cast with the disk or knob lying horizontally and were then bent up into the correct shape. Then there is also the possibility of two cast parts being connected with a rivet, as is the case with many other frogs. I see little reason why the same could not apply to button and loop fasteners.

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

I am very aware of just how beltplates frogs and dress fastners were made for I have a collection of originals of these things. What I was refering to was the repros' from the "Armillium website" put forward by John, it would appear that some one there has seen the paper on this by Miks and has jumped in to reproduce them. What I was trying to point out is that we can all cheat to a certain degree in reproduction, I have done so myself at times over the last 30years of Roman reproduction. I would also say from the experience point of view I've never yet seen a situation of a fastner like that shown by Miks made from two cast pieces and riveted together. That's why I have made the comment on the Armillium pieces where I would say they are sheet metal and not cast at all.

[Octavianus]

As you can see in the picture, they are casted in brass, in two pieces, and riveted and soldered with silver solder.
They aren't sheet metal at all... But I can't see what's the problem with sheet metal anyway...
I've made it in two pieces to keep the price low, they aren't archaeological reproductions at all.
I have "jumped in" to reproduce this pieces because I think there's both physical and "logical" evidence of its use, but this is, of course, my opinion only. Maybe next time I will have to ask for permision from the "experts" before making anything :twisted:

[PhilusEstilius]

Jorge I do not find fault at all in your work and indeed I stand corrected with my reference to sheet metal, what I was trying to point out is that what Miks shows in his drawing is indeed one complete cast object. I would also not presume in any way to be an expert and see no justification in your comment regarding future work you might consider. I do understand indeed your point of view as also I do appreciate all other points of view, however in my point of view I'd go as far as to say that Dr. Christian Miks may well have it all wrong and the object we see is no more than a dress or cloak fastner.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Alexander,

Is the picture you posted from Mik's book based on any evidence suggesting that a sword would have been suspended in the way(s) he is depicting? If there is plausible evidence for this, then it would be great.

All of the objects shown in the image that Alexander posted up were found together.

Yes, the diagram from Miks proposes a reconstruction of the Vindonissa find. On the diagram, H is a drawing of the find, A-G - the parts of the find, and I and J - proposed reconstruction of the suspension system. Miks also refers to the sculpture which I posted in the above post as a possible illustration of this type (J) of suspension.

The button fastener illustrated in Miks could also keep the gladius to the armpit if the top holes fed the strap above and over the belt, with the bottom holes feeding a strap below it. Not much difference to the single criss-cross strap secured with a buckle really.

I used two vertical straps going through the top and bottom rings on each side of the belt, albeit without the fastener. Works good and keeps the sword at the proper height, as seen here - my son is wearing the sword.

[PhilusEstilius]

I do think it is time we did a good run down on the drawings put forward by Miks. A D&E are decoration pieces F is the stud G shows what may be Lorica Segmentata buckle plates, that may well account for our small buckle then when we look at what appears to be the only original picture at all. We then find that D & F were under the sword scabbard, it has been suggested by Crispvs that this sword was or may have been deposited with it's belt wrapped around it as a possible complete situation of sword and belt. I would say no as there is only one object F our stud and it could bring out an idea that this particular stud is no more than a clothing fastner or a cloak fastner. The kind of cloak fastner I refer to was stitched into a cloak and had a button hole arrangement for the cloth to go over as can be seen on many Roman coins that show Emperors with such devices. I have two such originals one of which came out of the same mould as a one displayed in the museum at Chesters Fort on Hadrians' Wall only mine was found some miles farther east.

[Crispvs]

Actually the suggestion was not mine but was make by Dr Ekhardt Dreschler-Erb in his article some years ago in Arma.

When you say you can make out button and loop fasteners on coin images, can you post up an example for us?

Crispvs

[Magnus]

Maybe some type of cloak fastener as well?

[Tarbicus]

Maybe some type of cloak fastener as well?

I took a look through the Vindonissa catalogue like Ade did, and also the catalogues for Augusta Raurica and the Siska.

The example posted above has a very large disc button, but a great deal of the other found examples have only smaller buttons. I can't see these really securing cloth, but I can definitely see how they would stay in place in belt thickness leather. Many, if not most, also only have one ring hole, not two, as seen in Jorge's version. It also seems a bit too elaborate for use as a button on clothing, whereas both ends are ideally suited for securing scabbards on a belt.

We assume frogs can only be attached to the outside of the belt via plates, but there's absolutely no reason at all that these fasteners couldn't be for weapons also, and would certainly be a far more practical method of making the sword or dagger removable. I also don't believe using the fact that only one was found is particularly relevant, otherwise we must assume the vast majority of belts only had a single pugio frog themselves as most of those have been found alone, and not with their expected partner as a complete pair.

That said, if we use buckles as a paradigm as they are used on armour and sword fasteners amongst others, there also could be no reason why these studs couldn't have secured both clothing and weapons on belts.