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Latest Pictures Gladiators of Ars Dimicandi
#16
Quote:Confusedhock: Confusedhock:
I don't belive to my eyes to read your post

We are not irresponsible. I don't understand because you use such a serious word.
Our armament is not so wrong as you say. I don't understand these criticisms.
I have seen in Europe many groups that propose him to the public with very worse armaments of ours and forms ever existed. Besides they propose joinings among gladiatorial not true.

I don't understand because you have to attack against our armaments.

Valete

Perhaps you don't know or have forgotten the overweening comments from Dario Battaglia about the other reenactors (for example the legionaries)? Or his criticism about Marcus Junkelmann work? So you should not wonder if there Ars Dimicandi isn't handled with kid gloves :wink:

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Lucius Domitius Aurelianus
Patrik Pföstl

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.roemer.ch.vu">http://www.roemer.ch.vu

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php">http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php


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#17
Quote:Or his criticism about Marcus Junkelmann work?

Confusedhock:

I know instead that Junkelmann, in the recent reprint of his book on the gladiators, he has criticized in a little elegant way Ars Dimicandi and his job. Criticisms must be done with loyalty and not from the pages of a book.

Who is behaved badly it is not certain Ars Dimicandi, that has firmly fight always for his ideas but in correct way.
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#18
As far as I understood Junkelmann his critique of Ars Dimicandi is quite academic. Such critique is part of the scientific method, and without such critique nothing in the subject ( or in this case, the world of LH) would ever change. So I don´t see why you cannot see the critique (as well as by Junkelmann or in this case by me) as something positive which helps you to improve.

Quote:Criticisms must be done with loyalty and not from the pages of a book.
Where exactly is this set down as a law?

Quote:Our armament is not so wrong as you say. I don't understand these criticisms.
I said that certain features of your equipment are more than hypothetical -This is IMO irresponsible in public display. Every group that makes public displays should be aware of the fact that usually the visitors remember what they see unfiltered as factual. In that sense such displays are irresponsible towards the audience unless they are commented and the hypothetical character as well as mistakes or free interpretation of certain artefacts are explained to the audience.

Quote:I have seen in Europe many groups that propose him to the public with very worse armaments of ours and forms ever existed.

I haven´t. I only know one other group which works on pretty much the same level. But even if you were right, it wouldn´t make your own situation worse or better, the argument is relativistic - we were not discussing other groups.

Quote:Besides they propose joinings among gladiatorial not true.
That is then sad, and makes those groups even more irresponsible. However, I already noticed above that your groupings are correct. It does not make you more responsible if you point your fingers at others and say that they are worse, however.

[/quote]
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#19
Quote:Quote:
Criticisms must be done with loyalty and not from the pages of a book.

Where exactly is this set down as a law?

It's not a law, but it is a few from cowards to hide himself behind the pages of a book. In this way the criticized one doesn't have the possibility to reply. This is my thought.


Quote:So I don´t see why you cannot see the critique (as well as by Junkelmann or in this case by me) as something positive which helps you to improve.

I don't see positive notes in this you say because I see a sort of resentment or grudge instead towards Ars Dimicandi. Every occasion is useful for whoever, to bitterly criticize our association, while towards all the other groups this doesn't happen.
Among the other groups I always see an exchange of compliments and everything it is perfect, while when it speaks of Ars Dimicandi all they attach anything is proposed.
This situation brings me to think that in reality there is under a hidden purpose, and is not simple constructive criticism.

Here as I see this strange situation.
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#20
Over the 99% of the equipments shown by the gladiatorial iconography it doesn't profit of some archaeological attestation; nevertheless the technical characteristics of the various models of helmets, greaves, shields and other, they punctually confirm constant peculiarity in the murmillo, rather than in the provocator, on the thraeces or on the secutor; peculiarity tied to a specific technique of fencing.
It is evident therefore, that the experimentation of the gladiatorial duels (and therefore of its armaments), necessarily has to found itself on replicas “not attestedâ€
Hyrpus
Vincenzo Pastorelli
www.hephestus.net
www.arsdimicandi.net
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#21
It looks to me as you guys are doing the same great job of entertaining the crowds in the arena I have seen you do before ! Great action pictures.

Sure, from a technical point you could replace some kit & improve your visual appearance for those of us who want to try & exactly replicate Gladiator equipment as seen in mosaics & the finds from Pompei.

For example adding the padded textile defences for arm & leg beneath metal manica & greaves.

These are simple to make & quite effective in use to say the least.

The point about helmets is also fairly hypothetical as older helmets - if indeed they are actually older & not just differing in design - may well have stayed in use for a fair while.
On a practical note it is actually fairly hard to find decent gladiator helmets from vendors without going down the purely custom root.

At least you have correct(ish) pairings & dont have people throwing their helmets & shields at each other every fight !

Keep up the good work & like the rest of us improve kit each time it needs replacing.

Adam aka Attilus the Murmillo in the Vicus
Adam Rudling
The Vicus - recreating life in 1st Century Britain
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#22
Buongiorno amici "Ars Dimicandi",

I think if you want to reconstruct fighting styles you have to use armor as close to the original as possible. I was always wondering where you got the idea from of the small shields of the provocatores which in my eyes resemble more medieval shield than ancient Roman ones.

Junkelmann says that the scuta of the provocatores might have been smaller than those of murmillones and secutores but not that small as you are using them. When looking at the frescoes, mosaics, reliefs etc. you see that the handle of a provocator scutum should be the same as that of a murmillo because they all have the shield boss in the middle, where the grip is.

Vale bene,
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#23
Quote:It's not a law, but it is a few from cowards to hide himself behind the pages of a book. In this way the criticized one doesn't have the possibility to reply. This is my thought.
Well, you have a possibility to reply. e.g. here, or in your own publication.
Just keep it civil. Smile

Quote: Every occasion is useful for whoever, to bitterly criticize our association, while towards all the other groups this doesn't happen.

As far as I am concerned: You will find some people from other groups on this forum who will gladly jump up and tell you that I critizied them. It´s not an exclusive privilege you enjoy. Wink
I also critized some of Junkelmann´s work here in this forum, if that helps.

Quote:Over the 99% of the equipments shown by the gladiatorial iconography it doesn't profit of some archaeological attestation; nevertheless the technical characteristics of the various models of helmets, greaves, shields and other, they punctually confirm constant peculiarity in the murmillo, rather than in the provocator, on the thraeces or on the secutor; peculiarity tied to a specific technique of fencing.
Yes, indeed.
[quote]It is evident therefore, that the experimentation of the gladiatorial duels (and therefore of its armaments), necessarily has to found itself on replicas “not attestedâ€
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#24
p.s.:
I forgot: my major point of critique was
Quote:Every group that makes public displays should be aware of the fact that usually the visitors remember what they see unfiltered as factual. In that sense such displays are irresponsible towards the audience unless they are commented and the hypothetical character as well as mistakes or free interpretation of certain artefacts are explained to the audience.

Since none of you objected, may I assume you share my thoughts?

I mean, this can very well be seen outside of the discussion above, can´t it?
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#25
Hi Rita

I’m amused about how sensitive you and the other members of Ars Dimicandi are (and you all call yourself Gladiators …….. :lol: )!. Especially in view of the big words your chief is shouting around about the other roman Reenactors I’m wondering about your sensitivity :wink: .

If someone praises himself how great and authentic his work is while there are so many errors in his work (yes in his work and not just in his equipment) he can’t expect getting handled with kid glove – really not!!!! :roll:

By the way: Could you please explain me the reason why you always hit eachother with the swords at your helmets?
For modern and uninformed public that may be funny but ……….. O.K. now we are actually on the beginning of this discussion again ……… 8)

I'm sorry for my bad English .....

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Lucius Domitius Aurelianus
Patrik Pföstl

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.roemer.ch.vu">http://www.roemer.ch.vu

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php">http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php


[Image: o3.gif]

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#26
MOD WARNING

People, a word of warning.

Please stick to the discussion, which is about the equipment of the group Ars Dimicandi. Please refrain from comments about other people not in this discussion. It hardly matters who criticcised marcus Junkelmann or who was criticised by Marcus Junkelmann.

Also, the leader of Ars Dimicandi is not in this discusssion, therefore it is not adding to the discussion to criticise members of his group for things they did not say. Please refrain from doing so.

Let's keep this civil. Answer arguments with counter-arguments (founded ones please) and not with criticism of behaviour or sayings of third parties.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#27
Quote:Hi Rita

I’m amused about how sensitive you and the other members of Ars Dimicandi are (and you all call yourself Gladiators …….. )!. Especially in view of the big words your chief is shouting around about the other roman Reenactors I’m wondering about your sensitivity

Confusedhock: I don't understand why do you mean...Sorry :o


Quote:If someone praises himself how great and authentic his work is while there are so many errors in his work (yes in his work and not just in his equipment) he can’t expect getting handled with kid glove – really not!!!!

My think is really...I see in your words very resentment and grudge.
Excuse us if ArsDimicandi exist...sorry :roll:
You and your group are the best...:wink: Is it all right this way?


Quote:By the way: Could you please explain me the reason why you always hit eachother with the swords?
For modern and uninformed public that may be funny but

Really, i don't understand the sense of this your sentence

Valete
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#28
Quote:By the way: Could you please explain me the reason why you always hit eachother with the swords?
For modern and uninformed public that may be funny but
There I have made an error by copy this from my word to the forum (I use the word for correction of my bad English :wink: )

There is the "right" text:

Quote:By the way: Could you please explain me the reason why you always hit eachother with the swords at your helmets?
For modern and uninformed public that may be funny but ……….. O.K. now we are actually on the beginning of this discussion again ………

Quote:You and your group are the best... Is it all right this way?

Really not! And there is the different between Ars Diminadi and a lot of other groups like mine I think. I like the Roman reenactment including Gladiatorial combats. And I do all that with a lot of fun. But I would never compare my work with experimental Archaeology....

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Lucius Domitius Aurelianus
Patrik Pföstl

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.roemer.ch.vu">http://www.roemer.ch.vu

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php">http://www.celtae.de/SihFrewen/index.php


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#29
I have seen several gladiator shows, in the USA and in Europe, and I have to say that I felt Ars Dimicandi group gave the best 'historical' show I have seen. I an not old enough to remember the original gladiator events in Rome, but... :lol:
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
moderator, Roman Army Talk
link to the rules for posting
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#30
Quote:By the way: Could you please explain me the reason why you always hit eachother with the swords at your helmets?

During our bouts we found that aside from the lovely metal ringing noise the public hear, the gladiator wearing the helmet can also be disorientated by such a blow - especially to the faceplate.

Such blows are occsionally shown in mosaics, especially from tridents & spears ....
several of the spear thrusts to my faceplate i have recieved have been enough to stop me dead in my tracks & gain my opponent more space & distance.

Mind you we only take 'wounds' as such to the naked bits Big Grin
Adam Rudling
The Vicus - recreating life in 1st Century Britain
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