Marathon 2011

[Ceasar Augustus]

Yeah Giannis, my parents never lend me money for my projects. cry:

[Na Saighdiuir]

Sounds like a really class idea!!!I should have some gear by then,itll be good to see everyone in the flesh!

[Ceasar Augustus]

It would be... Maybe sometime you can all come to MA and do something like this?

[Kineas]

If the "right" year is 2011, that's the year to do it. 3 years will be even easier to plan and build for than two.

May I make some suggestions?

On this list, the Marathon thread should be kept active so that we can recruit.

One of the leaders (there has to be leader) should organize a "starting kit manual" that simplifies the many threads on Chitons and Aspis and all the other equipment and lays out the majority opinion and at least one dissenting opinion (I'm thinking of the lino thorax debate) in a mature way so that new guys (like me) can easily access the info and start building kit with confidence. The bottom line would be on acceptability--the manual should tell a starting reenactor what to build to have an acceptable kit for Marathon.

Establish some ground rules--just for starters, is this a "490BC only" event or is this "any Hoplite or peltast impression 700BC to 300 BC" event. Are we limited to impressions that represent the battle? Or are we commemorating the whole of the Persian wars?

Establish a sponsor in Greece--one of the forum members who is willing to take charge of organizing the event at the pointy end. This is the toughest job--commanding a phalanx is easy, but getting it to the battlefield is what causes ulcers... Grant that guy the authority to make the decisions that may annoy some but keep the ball rolling. Communicate regularly.

I recommend we work to find some Persians. I'm quite sure that the women in my group are going to make Scythian kit, and I know there's a group in the UK that does the same. Perhaps there are some reenactors in Europe who would be willing to re-badge for a weekend in Greece? I'm thinking of all those horse-archer guys in Hungary and Poland. They can leave their ponies at home... just like the Persians...

It'd be nice to have a camp area. And what about some side events like a guard mount on the acropolis? or perhaps a march from Athens to Marathon? (I know how far it is...) And some time set aside for experimental archeology--ie, testing the various drill theories?

I organize or support another organizer for eight events a year, with from 200 to 2000 participants. We have checklists and systems and you'll be starting from scratch, but it can be done. I'd recommend that Government blessing and a corporate sponsor are where you want to start. When I'm in Greece next spring I'd be happy to help, if only to make a few meetings and demonstrate active North American support.
If the UK government and tourism industry can pay to haul the entire North American rev war hobby to the UK for 2 weeks (they've done it twice) I suspect that the Greek government and their airline can be coerced into hauling all the world's hoplites. Again, this takes time, but the sooner you start, the better. Make a corporate style presentation on power point (I can do this if you like, but it would be in English) and start hitting the airlines and the Board of Tourism or whatever the equivalent is in Greece.

So, to recap:

1) Get Gov of Greece and Town of Marathon support and approval.
2) With that approval in hand, start on corporate sponsorship and the airlines.
3) On this list, start laying down acceptable guidelines for the event and for kit.
4) Set a date. Once the date is set, don't even discuss changing it. Date changes kill events.

This e-mail has a bossy tone I did not intend. Perhaps a weekend as a Brigadier General has affected my brain... anyway, just trying to help, and happy to do what I can to support the effort.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is a good and organizing post,Kineas. We need your's and others' guidance for you have experience in various events that people in Greece don't have. The difficult part I think is getting a leader or various leaders who would accept the responsibilites for the things you mentioned above. Negotiating with the authorities and finding sponsors is something that requires time and above all,the willingness to do it.
For now we can discuss what time frame is acceptable.
Although it's a Marathon event,my opinion is that any impression between 700-350bc should be acceptable. We would lose some excellent impressions if we were strictly 490bc. After all,few helmets,for instance,would be accurate for 490bc... And of cource we don't aim only to military impressions. We would lose all the women or wise old men,or servants and literally all those who don't have a kit yet,other than a chiton! And after all,the majority of re-enactors do portray the Persian War era hoplites. I don't know about Persians and how we could find any numbers of them. I can assure you that you won't be successful in recruiting them from non re-enactor Greeks,even if you gave them the kit for free Well,some may come but...
We could also start a manual from now on what is and what is not acceptable,but someone should have the final word,now in the thread and then in the event. Not a very pleasant job,I admit. We should make it clear that for the event it's not necessary that we solve all our differences and start long debates again like "was the linothorax made entirely out of leather or linen?".
And maybe we could make this thread or a new one a "sticky" so people get aware of the event and recruitment doesn't stop.
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Cooperation is the key.

In the three other time periods I do, we like to joke that reenactors go through three stages, no matter how great their academic knowledge.

1) I know nothing
2) I know everything
3) I know how little there is to KNOW, and I know the difference between knowing and believing.

There does HAVE to be a guide or a manual--and it can (and should) include dissenting opinions. And if you empower somebody --perhaps a couple of somebodies--to decide what is and isn't acceptable, it will save hurt feelings (in both directions) later. And the whole decision thing can go on a sliding scale.

so you might say:

1) Hoplite portrayals must have a dished Aspis at least 32 inches in diameter with an approved shield blazon.
2) The Event organizer reserves the right to decide who is in the front rank and in subsequent ranks. ( a subtle push for people to do the very best they can to get into that front rank.)

That's just a for-instance. Perhaps the minimum acceptable hoplite aspis is 28 inches. There's folks on this forum who could start that thread (call it ASPIS--Manual or something so that all the Marathon regs are done the same way) get a consensus of the forum's members, and then set it. People don't need to AGREE, they merely need to decide on what range of options is acceptable.

And they need to say and understand that further research may change the standard.

Likewise, I think using the whole range of portrayals available is just smart. Why not have 4th C. peltasts? In fact, if all else fails, many of those other portrayals might do as stylized opposition. (Don't tempt me to try Persian Immortals. I'm already the "bad guys" in three other time periods). LOL D D

Anyway, I'm full of advice and you are the man on the spot. Experience in other time periods says that while an event can be organized by a non-resident, it is very, very difficult, and that the host needs to have the language and political understanding of the region where an event is held. It seems to me that Marathon should be easy, in that it is a great Greek victory, and an important world event that only serves to make Greece look better, and represents exactly the kind of spectacle that Greece uses in advertising herself. By contrast, this weekend I was in the US portraying a British and Native raiding party burning our way through the lower Schoharie Valley. The event was well-run and well hosted, but imagine how difficult it was to get the local and state authorities to host an event that was a major local disaster!

[hoplite14gr]

For equipment refer to the biginers nad reenactment stikies in this section.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nah,i think a more specialized thread should be made,only for the Marathon event. The beginner's section is not so visible,and though many people have come since it's been set,it has remained inactive.A Marathon sticky is what we need to catch the eye,but we can't do it yet,since there is NO any event at Marathon,and everything is but an idea in some of our minds.
Khaire
Giannis

[Na Saighdiuir]

Giannis is right on this aspect.A specialised section is in need here but as already said lets make sure weve got an event to go to first.

[Kineas]

Just a thought on the Persians--pay them.

All the hoplites ought to be hoplites. We'd be wonderfully lucky to get a 100, right?

When we put on a major show in North America, it costs between 25K and 75K dollars to run. We get firewood and straw and porta-johns and sometimes food, often entertainment. That's what those corporate sponsors are for, to spend money.
So at the same time, the Gov of Greece or the local town can pay people to be Persians. Their kit will be awful (unless so enthusiastic local gets involved) but it's not a difficult impression, and it'll be costume, not proper kit.

I understand that no patriotic Greek wants to be Persian at Marathon. But if you can get folks in North carolina to play Yankees, and people in downstate New York to be British, I'd be amazed if there weren't some young people who'd be delighted to do it for a few darics.

[Kineas]

The town of Marathon needs to provide permission and support in locating a site. The site needs to support both the reenactors and the public, and (here's something to ponder) it's not essential that it be "on" the actual battlefield. In fact, period flavor beats the actual site 9 out of 10 times. We can all march or drive to the monument at some point, but the site of public presentation/phalanx demo/camp/reenactment needs to be as much like 490 BC Marathon as possible in modern Greece.
The site needs to have space for the reenactors, the requisite permissions for camping, wood fires, toilet facilities, etc. It also has to have access to parking for both reenactors and visitors.
Ideally, the town should have or purchase site insurance for the days the reenactors are present. this insurance should cover us and the public. In the US and Canada, such insurance costs about $400 a weekend. And we're using guns...
Usually the town will also provide the toilet facilities and the firewood, as well as any regulations on open fires that need to be followed.

Each reenactor will bring the town of Marathon about $2000 in tourism money (hotels, family, etc--this is the figure we use in North America) or roughly $150.00 a day. In addition, each reenactor will generate twice that again in tourism revenue in bringing tourists to a locale if supported by advertising. So 100 Hoplite reenactors should bring 60K dollars of tourism money, and that's without follow of use of photos, etc. A venue that gets 1000 reenactors will usually see about $500,000 dollars in tourist money.

The EU has all sorts of programs that support heritage and can be used to support reenactments. The Town of Marathon can access these grants easier than Hoplite reenactors. So they stand to profit from the event locally and get their investment repaid by the EU.

Insurance, firewood, toilets, advertising are on-the-spot costs. Next, I'll talk about getting foreign reenactors--airfare, hotels, etc--with corporate sponsors.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think you're being a little over optimistic here...100 hoplite re-enactors from all the world...is it realistic? $25K-$75K from the town of Marathon...for something completely unknown in Greece :? I hope you're right. As you said,I'm the man in the spot,but...almost!I'm 20 and I live in Northern Greece,with no connections either in the Government nor the local authorities...Stefane,are the Mores willing to take action in this matter,and is there a chance they influence the authorities?What about this leader?Kineas seems willing to help and enthusuastic,but as he said,Canada is not the best possible place to organise an event in Marathon!
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

If Marathon had happened in North America, I'd have a local point of contact and a sponsor in two weeks.

Hey, I'm sorry to be the only one talking this way, Anyone care to agree, or do you all think this is as hard as folks are saying? My EU experience is that the EU is MORE interested in cultural stuff than the US. Should this be so hard?

Giannis, when I contacted the greek government her in Canada a few weeks ago, they made it plain that they didn't like the request for an event coming from Canada. That makes sense--no one in Canada is going to take a heritage request from an American seriously, either.

But all you folks have to do is START. I bet there's lots of folks on this thread and on this list who will pitch in if you get us a YES and a date.

Hey, I could be wrong.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Kineas,let me explain some things for the situation in Greece and why I'm a bit sceptical,or say,overenthusiastic about how this event could be organized in a big scale. I'm not trying,by any meanse,to scare or abandon the idea,I should have been mad :evil: Just to inform what the difficulties are going to be.
I have asked none in Greece that has even heard the word "re-enactor". Nor is there an equivalent synonym in Greek language! They don't grab the meaning. So if you contact any authorites,you'll have to explain that "re-enactors are those who dress like ancients". We all know that it is not that simple,but you shouldn't expect from them to know better. And since,as Gioi mentioned,for years the only people who dressed like ancients,and still do,were the Pagans,who usually speak openly against the current leading religion,it's obvious that there is that prejudice not only by the authorites but the majority of people.
How many groops are there in the world? I think one from the UK,two from AUS,one from Spain and one from Greece.Am I forgetting someone? If the Mores were introducing the idea to the authorities,ensurance by all those groups that they're about to come would be vital I think. How could this be done? And do you think all of them would be able to come as groups? If I go and speak to someone now,I'll be speaking only for myself,about a hypothetical event where "many" individuals would come from abroad.
As for Heritage,no such ifficial events are held for ancient stuff.The only few events concern the Greek revolution in 1821,and those are far different than re-enacting events.
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Hmmm.

those are good points, and worthy of consideration. If you don't mind, I'm going to ask a friend who lives in Greece to poke around for us.

Again, I'm used to the UK and France, where everyone seems to reenact something . It is not the world's largest hobby--did you know that? Mind you, your definition of reenactor has to be fairly broad.

I don't know how many I could get from Canada--but I bet it would be a fair number. And I don't even have an aspis yet. Sigh. I had planned on doing 4th C. stuff--perhaps even cavalry--but if Marathon can be made to happen, obviously that will affect my kit.

Hmm. Who do I know in Greece...