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Hoplites of the Archaic Age
#1
Hello everyone. Im a new member to the forums. I am not a reenactor, but the reason these forums is becase i am upsessed with the warfare, armour, and battle tactics of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Thats why i joined!

I started this thread because i was wondering if anyone has any pictures of Hoplites from the Archaic Period. So does anyone have any images?
Daniel Haag
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#2
Wellcome,

Please use the search facility and check the thread Beotian shield.
You will find images in these links

Kind regards

P.S. the mods will ask you to put your name on signature-forum rule.
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#3
Welcome to RAT!

CVA Online is an excellent resource if you are looking for hoplites in vase paintings. I have personally abused it.
[size=75:wtt9v943]Susanne Arvidsson

I have not spent months gathering Hoplites from the four corners of the earth just to let
some Swedish pancake in a purloined panoply lop their lower limbs off!
- Paul Allen, Thespian
[/size]

[Image: partofE448.jpg]
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#4
Wellcome!
Here you are:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1208135836
Peter Connolly's illustration. Gioi perhaps has a higher resollution pic of this scene. As Stephanos said,please do a search in the forum. There are dozens of illustrations and photos posted. So many that hardly can anyone in the forum have seen them all!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#5
Giannis, that is an odd illustration. But for the fellow squatting in the middle, they're not so archaic, or at least very late archaic if you take the period to 480bc. Some of them sport rather late style helms and the preponderance of tube and yoke would not be possible before the late 6th c.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#6
It could be well before 510 bc Paul. The tube anf yoke was used by then,and it's clearly Archaic age with whatever timing-the official being till 479bc. We see al least two bell cuirasses,thew vast majority of helmets are corinthians,with one early chalcidean and some Illyrian. The ram chalcidean is archaic and most such helmets found were archaic. We see arm and thigh guards that are also mainly archaic. And the high crest that appears lesser and lesser in classical art. So why is it odd? Of course,Archaic is also 600 bc,and then we wouldn't have but bell cuirasses and only early corinthian and illyrian helmets. And perhaps few more odd helmets. But this illustration could be from about 510-480 bc.
Khaire
Giannis

PS. note also the ear corinthian,that I'm sure Gioi is going to comment on
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#7
Quote:But this illustration could be from about 510-480 bc.

I agree, though the squatting fellow would be a bit anchronistic by then in greece. I was pointing out that it could not be earlier. I am assuming that the image requested is of hoplites pre about 525-550 BC, since there are many of them past that.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#8
Nice,this is an early archaic age hollite. His shield would probably be even more hollow. This is the age that archaic and geometric mix at some point.
This is time we know very little about. this particular soldier is wearing the Argos bell cuirass,the first cuirass found after some centuries of "dark age". We don't know exactly how these men fough,though it was the first stages of the hoplite phalanx. You can see how different he is than the pic I posted. However when you say "archaic hoplite" the most common thing in mind is a fully developed phalanx like the one i posted. Me thinks,at least
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#9
Probably his shield could have been "Beotean" type.
Kind regards
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#10
This last one Gioi is nice but VERY anachronistic. Let me say what i see there. I see the walls of Mycenae in the background,this could not be later than 1100bc. I see a kegel Helm and a bell cuirass of about 700 bc. The boeotian shield may never had been covered in bronze. His tunic could be Mycenean but it also resembles archaic ones,being closer to the mycenean though. Now his oponent wears also a bell cuirass. His helmet comes from about 1500-1600bc the same with his not so accurate figure eight shield. His sword is also from the same time.
The chariot could be of about 1200 bc and the army in the background could have been mycenean of about 1500bc. They have fig.8 shields and tower shields.
The victorious soldier could pass for an early archaic-geometric hoplite.
And here comes the question.Sesdelta38 what period hoplite do you want exactly? The archaic age was the time that the old way of fighting changes and the hoplite battle became standard. So the equipment changed drastically... You can see the differences between those warriors and those I posted,fighting in a phalanx.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#11
Image of Archaic hoplite here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... n&start=20

Kind regards
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#12
Quote:Probably his shield could have been "Beotean" type

I've read rather convincing arguements that the "Boetean" shield never existed. It's appearance on vases is an attempt by the artist to reconcile the round aspis with the Dyplon known fromearlier ages. Has anyone an opinion on this?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#13
I've seen the illistrations in the Osprey Book The Spartan Army when i went to a hobby shop near my house but i never bought it. I just looked through the book. I have seen the picture of the greek hoplite in the post by hoplite14gr and i have seen the miniatures depictiing archaic greek hoplites. The grenada studio trojan wars figures look like archaic greeks.

Does anyone know what a forum signiture is?

I've also already seen the Trojan war painting ny G. Rava.
Daniel Haag
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#14
Quote:
Quote:Probably his shield could have been "Beotean" type

I've read rather convincing arguements that the "Boetean" shield never existed. It's appearance on vases is an attempt by the artist to reconcile the round aspis with the Dyplon known fromearlier ages. Has anyone an opinion on this?

The dypilon shield existed in the 8th century bc and it's depicted on pottery very frequently,perhaps more than the round shield.And there is no reason to believe that after that it stopped being used totally. So even in the 7th century bc the shield,direct descendant of the fig.* shield could have existed in the armies. of course it would have the name of the "earlier" shield type as at that time the hoplite shield was being invented. And was being adopted fast. The dypilon probably had a central grip rahter than the porpax seen on vases,but this is not nessesary,evolution is always present,and it some times comes out with not so successful results. The few re-enactors who have handled boeotian/dypilo n shields say this type is not suitable for phalanx fighting. The statement that it "never existed" is a bit of an exageration. The artists througout the greek world use specific characteristics and are even followed in sculptures of marble and bronze. All in all,I think it was depicted more frequently than it was used,just because the depictions were highly heroic in the early archaic age. I also don't believe they were ever covere din bronze,like the hoplite shield was not either at that time.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#15
Quote:The dypilon shield existed in the 8th century bc and it's depicted on pottery very frequently,perhaps more than the round shield.And there is no reason to believe that after that it stopped being used totally. So even in the 7th century bc the shield,direct descendant of the fig.* shield could have existed in the armies.


I had read this in Snodgrass' book. He cites Lorimer, whose books I do not have, as arguing that both the "boetian" and the "dyplon" are really just depictions of the old style figure 8 shields that the greeks would have known their ancestors used, though neither type was in use at the time. This is based on the fact that the dyplon is shown in 7th and 6th c art long after "anyone would claim it was still in use."

Snodgrass seems to try to soften this to allow for a Geometric Dyplon, but agrees on the boetian as art, not fact. He notes that the dyplon seems to have aquired religeos significance- interesting since it looks a little bit like a Labrys in profile.

Personally I find the double-grip Boetian highly unlikely. In images you will find that the artists cannot agree on which way the grip should face- towards the scallop or leavingt he cut-outs up and down.

I bring this up because Snodgrass and Lorimer are rather old sources and in their day there was no evidence for either boetean or dyplon other than vase images. Anything new been said on this topic? Have any archeological finds surfaced?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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