Hoplites of the Archaic Age

[PMBardunias]

Im suprised that manufacturers of wargaming figures have made no miniatures depicting the greek armies of the 7th century.

The reason for this probably lies in the fact that we really don't know much about how they fought in this period. I hope the fact that we can't even agree on the reality of the most important element of protection conveys this. The truth is that we don't have a totally accurate understanding of how hoplites fought in any period, but these early and perhaps trasitional periods are even more opaque.

PS: You apologia was quite mature of you. I have seen far older men flame far worse and flee much quicker to hide behind the anonymity of this medium

[Lvcivs Commodvs Cicero]

Then again there is the problem of shield blazons. They are clearly a favorite subject for artists, and this is really the only way to show them off well given the conventional postural restrictions of vase art.

Hmmmm this brings up a good question. I think the raised arm maybe used to aim the javelin. Kind of like modern grenade throwing. So do they ground the shield and toss javelins then pick it up for a bit of hand to hand or do they just raise the shield slightly as a counter balance and wing it?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Nah,it is suicide to leave the shield and pick it up again. After all,leave it where? In the ground? Or resting on the knee? Both impossible to do,plus at the same time an opposing phalanx would be charging against you or throwing their own javelins. How it is to throw javelins with a heavy shield,I admit i don't know. I do know that the thong helps you throw your javelin far and smoothely without considerable ability.
Khaire
Giannis

[sesdelta38]

Amazon Miniatures' Qt 25mm range does have a range of Dark Age and Geometric Greeks, but the range is very small.


Guys. Im gonna be gone until Wednesday afternoon, because the 7th grade, which is the grade Im in is going on a trip to someting called Lorado Taft in Oregon, Illinois. So I will be gone for three days. so this is my last post until I get back.

[PMBardunias]

Hmmmm this brings up a good question. I think the raised arm maybe used to aim the javelin. Kind of like modern grenade throwing. So do they ground the shield and toss javelins then pick it up for a bit of hand to hand or do they just raise the shield slightly as a counter balance and wing it?

The raised arm also acts as a counterweight to the throwing arm. You "pull" against the inertia of the weight of your arm to aid in the throw. I imagine it helps with balance too.

Someplace on this thread I posted a drawing of a famous statue of Zeus throwing and added a shield to his arm. My intention was to show that artists might have been using this posture to convey the act of throwing, but it shows how you would simply raise the shield as a counterweight.

That said, I should note that it is debatable whether a hoplite with convex, a double-grip shield ever threw a javelin, so the model would be the familiar throwing motion of a Roman with Pila and a single grip shield. The double-grip is no hindrance as can be seen in the Pelta, but the convexity seems to rule out convenient holding of a second spear.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul, I have to say that the aspis did indeed allow for a left hand use. This happened for two reasons. First of all,as we have discussed before,the antilabe was very near the rim,the fittings almost vertical to the rim. This is shown both in art and in the Vatican shield. This means that the left hand is not deep in the bowl of the shield,but the fingers were almost out of it. The action of holding a spear with the left hand while carrying an aspis is very frequently shown not only in vases but in sculptures too,mainly in grave stelai,where the soldier is shaking hands with another person or is making a sponde. Yes,I know,they're not fighting,but they most likely portray a realistic scene.
In the duel between the two hoplites one of them is holding his spear that way.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z8vgkhn1jek
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... G_0144.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 3e22_o.jpg
The other thing is that for a short period the hoplite can use only the porpax to hold the shield,leaving at all the antilabe,of cource this requires that you hold your arm at an angle. This is also shown in art,in non mythical scenes. Again not while engaged in battle,I admit.
And also,if it is true that the first hoplites with overlaping shields did throw they first spear,then it is necessary that the overlapping of the shields were left over right. As Paul and others said,if you want to throw something with some force and accurateley,you have to keep balance and gain momentum with the left arm forward,even slightly.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

I'm very much opened to new data on this issue. I have been told a number of times by reenactors that when the antilabe is at its proper length, seating the porpax snuggly, you can't bend the hand enough to hold a spear. Play around with different tightness and see what you think.

The other thing is that for a short period the hoplite can use only the porpax to hold the shield,leaving at all the antilabe,of cource this requires that you hold your arm at an angle.

This is something I had not considered, because I assumed the shield would be too unstable, but perhaps the spear shaft resting on the rim on the upper and lower sides makes this possible.

[hoplite14gr]

When having to hold spears like that
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... G_0144.jpg
we have noticed two things.

Those of us who use thick wollwn antilavi (like thick rope) have difficultu but they cope.
Those of us who use adapted leather (custom made) antilave don't face problems.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

It is curious to me that you guys can do this. I am wondering if your antilabe is too loose. To handle the shield effectively in battle, you should just be able to reach the antilabe comfortably with the hand while your forearm is snug in the porpax, right?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Artistic lisense? perhaps,but is is still a clear representation of what i mentioned before.
http://flickr.com/photos/schaapblater/2 ... 9/sizes/l/

[hoplite14gr]

Giannis, what you show is probable bt we avoid it as much as possible.

Paul a rather "wide-ish" prorpax (individual's taste on wide) can allow to dispense with the antilavi when not in violent movement-not for long though.

Thick rope/wool antilavi is the steadiest but you hold other things not well with the edge of your fingers.

Leather antilavi is ver comfortable but unsteady at least in my opinion.

We will experiment with combinations rope/wool leather.

Personal note: I once experimnted with a rigid metalic door handle as antilave. It was the best but you couldn't carry/handle anything else while holding to it.

Kind regareds

[PMBardunias]

I watched the Youtube videos of that Spanish reenactment group. The fellow with the great archaic panoply, who also holds a spear with his left hand, has his antilabe way too loose. You can see this from the way his hand bends until his arm is almost palm up while trying to hold the shield.

The porpax, especially with a leather inner cuff, is not dissimilar to the type of cup attachment we use to fit prosthetic limbs to patients who have lost arms and legs. The key is a snug fit to the fattest part of the forearm. With a tight antilabe, holding the arm in snug, the shield will essentially become an extension of the arm. This will greatly reduce the pivoting up and down around the porpax. I am continually fascinated by what an advanced structure the aspis is.

Perhaps there is some practical reason that speaks against this, let me know.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Gioi,better yet,compare the difference of the size of the two shields. The right shield must have been for a VERY big guy.Most porpakes are rather narrow. Also note that the oirpax is not in the center of the shield but slightly to the right,to allow for the antilabe to be near the rim.
http://manningimperial.com/item.php?ite ... =2&c_id=10
The second of the three shields to the right has a proper antilabe as shown in sculptures. The porpax however is exactly in the middle, so the antilabe is deeper than it should,and farhter from the rim.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Gioi,I'm sure you must have seen pics from the front. From the Olympia museum.The one to the right is considerably bigger than the other to the left.
Khaire
Giannis

[sesdelta38]

Gioi. You know that photo of the battle between the two hoplite armies that was posted buy Giannis? What book did you get that from?