SNAPPY SOLDIER TUNIC PLEAT

[Tarbicus]

Otherwise, if we assume the soldiers are intentionally hitching up their tunics to make these "snappy" pleats, as some sort of fashion statement, then we have to come up with a cultural reason for bakers, slaves, boys, and many other classes to do the same since we see the same features in their representations. I think that's a stretch.

To look attractive to the ladies; fashion overall; I personally think it's very simple. Hairstyles changed, beards were in then beards were out, then in again; no feminalia, then feminalia were in.

It's only natural that a fashionable look would be picked up by many in society as a whole. Today, the cut of our clothes may differ to make them look different styles, but the rules still apply to there being two legs to a pair of jeans, etc.

Is it not feasible that slave owners wanted their slaves to look "cool" as a reflection on themselves? Also, if it was fashionable to wear pleats at the time, don't forget the hesitance of the Romans to distinguish the slaves by sight, for fear they may see how numerous they are, so therefore slaves having pleated tunics would fit in more.

[Crispvs]

Travis,

Did you read my entire post, or just the first line?

On the subject of shorter tunics, Graham Sumner showed evidence of tunics which had been of the normal length but had been shortened by their owners by making tucks around the waist, suggesting that short tunics were not available to these people. It is also worth remembering that some Greek garments were short. Both the chiton and the exomis could be short and it is not impossible that some slaves were dressed in Greek style clothing.
Regarding the garments you cite with 'pleats' running from the shoulder. They could be pleats but then again I would expect an unbelted tunic to show a rippled ('pleated' if you like) effect up as far as the shoulder when the arms were lowered. If the effect on the statues you cite is more regular than could be expected from the natural folding of he material I have two questions: are any of these statues of women and if so could the 'pleats' actually be the effect produced by the buttons / knots in the 'gap sleeved' style of women's garment? Can you post up any pictures?
Also, have you experimented with reconstructed tunics yourself? If so, did you try several different possibilities and what were your results?

Crispvs

[tlclark]

To look attractive to the ladies; fashion overall; I personally think it's very simple.

Leave it to Tarbicus to blow holes in my theory.

How am I supposed to make an argument if you keep pointing out the elephant in the room? :wink:

It's totally true, though. Everyday we do thousands of arbitrary things for fashion that we never describe and write down because they are just so natural and taken for granted.

All the kids at my kid's bus stop are tying their shoelaces around the ankles and no one had to tell them to do that, no grand conspiracies, they just picked it up. If snapshots of this survive 500 years from now we will probably arguing why there was a rational reason to do so.

It's entirely possible that Romans all arranged their pleats just so, and they probably did, unthinkingly, so who knows.

BUT (you just knew a "but" was coming ) I find it really hard to talk about stuff like that, but I can see what look like gathers in the representations and so I started thinking, "hey?!" and you know the rest.

This is just a suggestion. It seems that there were gathers, and if there were, I think that explains the pleats. Can't prove it, but that's what I think.

Thanks Tarbicus,

Always a pleasure to get your angle

Travis

[tlclark]

Travis,

Did you read my entire post, or just the first line?

Ok, it's obvious I'm annoying people and I'm not trying to (it just comes naturally I guess!) So if I'm annoying people I'm sorry.

Yes I did read your entire post, but I just responded to that issue since the rest was largely covered before.

I'm not familiar with what Graham has to say on this matter, but I will look into it.

Both the chiton and the exomis could be short and it is not impossible that some slaves were dressed in Greek style clothing.

That's a very good point. I need to look closely at the tunic styles to see if we are looking at chiton or tunics.

are any of these statues of women and if so could the 'pleats' actually be the effect produced by the buttons / knots in the 'gap sleeved' style of women's garment?

No, I am only looking at male representations that don't have the usual clasps of a female chiton. Those produce very clear gaps along the shoulder seam and the buttons are very visible. On the images I'm seeing, their are no such feature.

About the pleats being "regular" that's a big problem. The pleats in the mainz stelae are very regular, as are the pleats in clothing on late monuments, such as the decannalia in the forum, the arch of the argentarii or other "genre", plebian, provincial or late styles. The pleats look far less regular in contemporary representations. I referenced the Pozzouli arch images, which show nearly - indentical imagery to the Mainz stelae, except that the style is dramatically different. The folds of the Pozzouli figures are softer, less regular, but definitely there. That makes me think, (but as Tarbicus mentioned I could easily be wrong) that this style of drapery is natural and not intentional.

Can you post up any pictures?

Unfortunately I don't have any good images that are my own, but if you check out Diana Kliener's Roman Sculpture you can see these shoulder gathers in an excellent image of Augustus from Corinth. (fig. 49 pg 73)

The shoulder is down and loosely held to the side, so we would expect to see the shoulder seam smooth, and yet it's clearly gathered. I've seen similar effects on many male statues. I will have to compile images of the shoulder seams to make the case.

Also, have you experimented with reconstructed tunics yourself? If so, did you try several different possibilities and what were your results?

I haven't made a full tunic, I've only sewn gathered seams to see how the material behaves. I think making a tunic is the next step, and I think that gathered seams will produce many of the effects we are seeing in the sculpture. I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks,

Travis[/quote]

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Tarbicus,

Always a pleasure to get your angle

Well, I'm very flattered Travis, cheers. However, do feel free to say I'm talkin' a load of old bobbins - I know I do quite often if not most of the time :wink: :roll: I think my tunic says it all.

[tlclark]

I think my tunic says it all.

What! You mean that polka-dots aren't authentic!! hock:

DARN! I was this close to making one. :wink:

Travis

[Crispvs]

Travis,

No offence taken and I don't find your posts annoying. They are challenging and stimulate me to think more about something I often touch on but rarely examine .
I hope this thread still has a lot of life in it.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

Here's a very nice relief from Puteoli of a Praetorian guardsman showing the pleats really well. Notice how baggy the tunic is, actually hanging down and hiding the cingulum. It's also interesting how the gladius is worn on top of the paenula.


From [url:19vcazbf]http://www.livius.org/pp-pr/prefect/praetorian_prefect.html[/url]

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Here's a very nice relief from Puteoli of a Praetorian guardsman showing the pleats really well. Notice how baggy the tunic is, actually hanging down and hiding the cingulum. It's also interesting how the gladius is worn on top of the paenula.

[size=150:3lk128vv]I[/size]t is neat!! It almost looks like the Glad is slung over his shoulder... I can't tell if that's a strap line or a wrinkle in the cloth. Something else interesting, the cloth in his tunica looks really thin, almost like a bed sheet!?! Hmmm....

[Tarbicus]

[size=150:2pl92hvi]I[/size]t is neat!! It almost looks like the Glad is slung over his shoulder... I can't tell if that's a strap line or a wrinkle in the cloth. Something else interesting, the cloth in his tunica looks really thin, almost like a bed sheet!?! Hmmm....

Hey Marsh, I see what you mean about the thin material. Could it be linen? Or, I received a wool cummerbund yesterday with a herringbone-like finish, and I think that would hang just like in the relief. I'm 99% sure it's a strap from the scabbard to his neckline. But there is that 1% niggling thing that it could just be protruding from underneath the raised paenula.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Hey Marsh, I see what you mean about the thin material. Could it be linen? Or, I received a wool cummerbund yesterday with a herringbone-like finish, and I think that would hang just like in the relief.

It sure makes you wonder...

I'm 99% sure it's a strap from the scabbard to his neckline. But there is that 1% niggling thing that it could just be protruding from underneath the raised paenula.

I totally agree... I wish I could actually see it w/ my own eyes for an hour or so :-) )

[mcbishop]

It's also interesting how the gladius is worn on top of the paenula.

It's more subtle than that: the line of the baldric beneath the paenula is suggested by the line in the garment. What is visible over the paenula is his shield carrying strap, which you can just about make out on his left shoulder (both details are much clearer on the photo I have (which is copyrighted, so I can't post it unfortunately... or fortunately, as you'll just have to take my word for it ;-). The shield carrying strap is also plainly visible on two of the the other Puteoli reliefs (another guy with a small round shield on one - Fig.3 in the article cited below - the other with a large body shield (complete with scorpion blazon: Fig.10 in the same article) and his forefinger hooked engagingly in the strap on the other - Fig.1 in the article).

Here's that rather jolly little article on these reliefs with some piccies (be warned: this is a PDF of the whole volume, some 11.9Mb):

http://www.ajaonline.org/archive/105.4/ ... pdf#flower

Mike Bishop

[Tarbicus]

It's more subtle than that: the line of the baldric beneath the paenula is suggested by the line in the garment...

That would have to be a pretty thin paenula surely? I've always noticed how reliefs showing paenula seem to be easily draped, at least far more than the one I've got, especially when it comes to that way of draping it up over the shoulder. Are they also the kind of herringbone I described for the cummerbund (I won't even go into the subligaculum/nappy I got), do you think, as opposed to the thicker wool?

...so I can't post it unfortunately... or fortunately, as you'll just have to take my word for it ;-) ) .

Sorry, don't believe a word. Post the photo and I might.

Here's that rather jolly little article on these reliefs with some piccies

Super - more goodies to read Ta very much!

[John M McDermott]

I have noticed this effect with the sagum as well and cannot duplicate it, even though I have what is probably one of the most accurate sagums.

That sure is a swell stele.

[tlclark]

That would have to be a pretty thin paenula surely? I've always noticed how reliefs showing paenula seem to be easily draped, at least far more than the one I've got, especially when it comes to that way of draping it up over the shoulder. Are they also the kind of herringbone I described for the cummerbund (I won't even go into the subligaculum/nappy I got), do you think, as opposed to the thicker wool?

Regarding the thinness of the drapery.

Nearly all drapery in sculpture has a very thin clingy quality to it, if it is done in anything remotely like a classicizing style. A lot of female goddesses are depicted that way. This is clearly different.

When I look at this and compare it to the Greek high standard for drapery, it looks rather weighty and heavy by comparison.

This is miles away from some of the classical stuff so I think it's fairly reliable.

On a side note, Flanders and the Netherlands in the middle ages were famous for very sheer and thin woolens made of boiled and stretched fibers. In theory, this takes the twist out of wool and then you can weave it tighter and smoother like linen or cotton and it doesn't twist, mat, or pill significantly. (Still big debate over exactly how this was done) They made everything from hose to cloaks out of the stuff and it was supposed to wear like iron, drape sheer like silk and shed water like a duck.

I have no evidence for similar treatments for the Romans but it's possible that this is similar.

Byzantines produced LOTS of wool/silk/linen blends that had really great draping qualities. When you see a genuine piece of Byzantine brocade up close, it's just amazing. These are HEAVY fabrics, lots of detail. You can practically run you hand over them and "see" almost like braille, the pattern, yet they drape only slightly less than plain silk, though it's about 3-4 times as much fiber. Neat stuff.

Have no idea what was possible in Roman times, but there is nothing extraordinary about these images, and the Pozzouli arch, or the figures on the plinths of the Arch of Septimus Severus, which are very similar that would make me think this isn't possible.

Travis