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Quote:The De Rebus Bellicis doesn't even say the Thorocomachus is a standalone textile armor.
De Rebus Bellicis doesn't say whether it was ever adopted either. All it is doing is suggesting a possible improvement for the troops' equipment.
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Quote:As I recall, gambesons are more associated with knightly armors, like hauberks and Renaissance plate armors.
Aketons and pourpoints were worn under mail. Arming doublets were worn under plate. They don't have much in common with each other. Gambesons were different again - they were a lot heavier and thicker and meant to be worn by themselves like a linothorax or padded jack. A lot of earlier plate didn't need anything because it had a padded liner. It could be worn over regular clothing. IMO Roman mail had an integrated padded liner too. So did scale armour.
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Quote:Jack Rizzio post=354437 Wrote:As I recall, gambesons are more associated with knightly armors, like hauberks and Renaissance plate armors.
Aketons and pourpoints were worn under mail. Arming doublets were worn under plate. They don't have much in common with each other. Gambesons were different again - they were a lot heavier and thicker and meant to be worn by themselves like a linothorax or padded jack. A lot of earlier plate didn't need anything because it had a padded liner. It could be worn over regular clothing. IMO Roman mail had an integrated padded liner too. So did scale armour.
So, in your oppinion what is the most accurate garment to wear under armour in this age (5th and 6 th centuries)?
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Which armour? Which geographical region? Mail, scale, and plate can have a padded liner so don't need anything except regular clothing. Lamellar needs something underneath. So does segmentata, but that wasn't used during the time in question.
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Quote:Which armour? Which geographical region? Mail, scale, and plate can have a padded liner so don't need anything except regular clothing. Lamellar needs something underneath. So does segmentata, but that wasn't used during the time in question.
Chain mail, Hispania 5th-6th century... I ask if it's appropiate wear a gambeson under the chainmail, a gambeson like Armae sells (the picture's one). This is my doubt, I want to be accurate but I don't know what I can wear under my chainmail.
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Quote:Which armour? Which geographical region? Mail, scale, and plate can have a padded liner so don't need anything except regular clothing. Lamellar needs something underneath. So does segmentata, but that wasn't used during the time in question.
Chainmail, Hispania 5th-6th century... I ask if it's appropiate wear a gambeson under the chainmail, a gambeson like Armae sells (the picture's one). This is my doubt, I want to be accurate but I don't know what If it's appropiate to wear this kind of gambeson or it's better to buy another kind of subarmalis.
Thanks.
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5th Century (I'm going to presume prior to the destruction of the Spanish army in 409-414) I'd say your best bet would be maile or scale.
Lamellar seems to have been rare until the mid-5th century when the East began making the transition to it. I think Aetius adopted Lamellar from the Huns and began implementing it in the Roman army, and the East at this time seemed to be copying military innovations in the west, like Lance-and-Bow warfare.
I'd say your best bet is to make your own Subarmalis, of thick linen quilted together and with leather pteruges.
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Quote:5th Century (I'm going to presume prior to the destruction of the Spanish army in 409-414) I'd say your best bet would be maile or scale.
Lamellar seems to have been rare until the mid-5th century when the East began making the transition to it. I think Aetius adopted Lamellar from the Huns and began implementing it in the Roman army, and the East at this time seemed to be copying military innovations in the west, like Lance-and-Bow warfare.
I'd say your best bet is to make your own Subarmalis, of thick linen quilted together and with leather pteruges.
Thanks for the answer
But my problen is I'm a little bit clumsy and also I' haven't so many time to do handicraft. This is the reason I'm asking what wolud be my best choice if i wolud buy a subarmalis or gambeson to wear under chainmail for this period.
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There is no evidence at all for a separate padded garment under mail during the period in question. All we have is speculation and guesswork. Anything that makes the armour comfortable is as likely to be as accurate as any other suggestion. Most mail doesn't really need padding underneath at all. Plenty of re-enactors reckon that their mail works fine with nothing but a woollen tunic against both SCA sticks and blunt steel weapons.
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In that case I recommend the SOTW leather Subarmalis. It was designed by Mike Daniels and is made by DSC.
http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id312.html
You have to Email to order it. The price has gone up too I think.
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Quote:In that case I recommend the SOTW leather Subarmalis. It was designed by Mike Daniels and is made by DSC.
http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id312.html
You have to Email to order it. The price has gone up too I think.
Thanks a lot both of you. Now I have a more precission notion about it. I like the leather subarmalis, but I have to think about it because chainmail has oil and I don't want to mess my tunic with the sleeves. :wink:
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It has a lot of custom options. I recommend you get the pteruges stitched, not velcro-ed.
I should mention that you can always wear a plain linen tunic with short sleeves over your fancy Late Roman one.
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I would like to point out we have no finds of integral padding under mail, scale or anything. Neither do we have no armour with integral padding after the period. Mail with integrated padding would also loose much of what makes it so useful. Flexibility.
If we look at history as a whole and apply what we archaeologist calls comparative antropological perspective it seems more likely that you would wear a separate padding rather than an integrated one.
And you cannot compare blunt steel blades being swung against you with moderate force with Vicious lashing blades or spearthrusts. A thick felted tunic may be enough, sure. But if it is thin and say of linen, you may
aswell be naked under the mail.
The mail protects against the edge, the padding against the crushing forces and provides a bit of flexing which makes it more difficult to pentetrate the rings.
And if we start talking about a thick felted tunic we are basically talking about a subarmalis.
And correct me if I am wrong, but I Believe Vegetius too mention something like the Thoracomachus, so it is not just something that is suggested. More likely, it is Another name for the subarmalis.
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And talking about petruges, there are finds from Masada, from what is interpretated as the roman garrison, of what seems to be linen petruges, several layers thick. Also, the padded greave from Dura may infact be a stand-alone item and not the lining of a greave. These articles can be found in Wearing the cloak.
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/dbbc/wearing-the-cloak.html
A highly recommendable book by the way.
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There is a greave liner from Vindolanda which, AFAIK, was found inside the greave, so I do not think the Dura greave Liner was a standalone piece.
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