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It's a lost battle, Doc. Here's my free advice, for what it's worth. If you want to wear socks, and the unit you're in approves it, then wear socks. I wear socks --the sewn together 3 piece version-- since it's more comfortable for my feet. Most of the time, commercial caligae don't really fit very well in the first place, and I have not yet purchased a custom-fit pair for financial reasons.
Because I have a problem with my feet that makes it pretty difficult, even painful, to wear caligae on hard surfaces, I put a supporting insole inside the sock. I'm fully aware that probably never happened in any form except and unless a sock-wearing Ancient Roman put layers of wool felt under his feet.
On the other hand, nobody can see what's inside my socks, my feet don't ache after a couple of hours, and I'm happy with it. Other people who are not of such a mind don't have to wear socks/insoles, and I won't say a word about their choices.
On caligae day, I'm gellin
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Crispus, you best hold that torch at extreme arms length! :wink:
I lived the tropics for 7 years, I come from Canada, and lived in
Scotland for 38
Years! I am basing all my comments on a lifetime experience as well as what' i've read and seen!
I am fairly sure the leg wraps are as un roman as femminalia.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Byron Angel
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Tarbicus,
Sock that may have belonged to a child does not really count as evidence for a legionary. I am sure I can find any random item and say....it existed therefore......
The other two sources mention socks....great so instead of the two I mentioned we have two more that mention socks but we have no idea what they were like unless these same socks were found. So how do we know they were not made using naalbinding? That would be great because I am having issue finding someone who can do it custom. If there is another way of making socks...I am all ears since there are many people I know that can just knit me a pair.
I just find the argument the Romans would have or the Romans would have not, ridiculous especially with respect to underclothing. Its just sense......human sense.....its cold, I am going to cover up. So this is what I say......you want socks, great!! Pick something in form and shape they may have been and use those. For someone to say that it would not have been that way or this way to me, is illogical. Then again I am a chemist and my view of evidence comes from being a scientist. This means I do not dismiss ANYTHING UNLESS ITS ABSOLUTELY PROVEN TO BE FALSE. Since this issue of socks and underclothing is NOT absolute, within reason, then its OK. It took the Romans from BC to late 1st C AD to say.....gee its freezing let me cover my feet. Come on really?????
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding
something like that?
it was and it's expensive.
probably the socks were simply waved for most people.
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Quote: Its just sense......human sense.....its cold, I am going to cover up.
Which is possible with the sagum and paenula, as Crispus's practical experience demonstrates.
Léine & Brat - Early Highland Clothing
Quote:you want socks, great!! Pick something in form and shape they may have been and use those.
Like those socks from Vindolanda, unless your impression is 4th-C or perhaps 3rd-C, and later, in which case naalbinding is extant. But this thread is about 1st-C. However, I think the question is why would a child's sock be any different to an adult's? What evidence is there for childrens' clothing that's any different in form and construction from the equivalent adult item of clothing, apart from size?
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Actually, I think there is quite a lot of evidence for socks. As well as the well known letter from Vindolanda from a soldier's mother, telling her son of her gift to him of socks and underpants, there is the child's sock from the same site. Okay - it was for a child, but the child must have been closely associated with a military establishment.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CCoQrQMwAA
Then, of course, there is the open toed and heeled sock shown on the Flavian period Cancelleria Reliefs. This image is redrawn by Mike Bishop.
http://s129.beta.photobucket.com/user/mc...egacy=true
Next there is the Roman razor handle which was found a few years back showing a foot wearing a sock.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CDwQrQMwCQ
Added to that there are the socks from Egypt. Again these are not necessarily military but we do know that Roman units ordered large amounts of clothing from Egypt.
For lower leg coverings, it is true that Germanic style leg wrappings might have attracted the sneering gaze of Roman soldiers, but leg bindings had a long history in the Mediterranean, as can seen from depictions on Greek white figure wear. We also have the list of clothing from Masada which mentions 'fascia'.
Byron, I am well aware that you have lived in both cold conditions and hot conditions as well as working amongst the hazards of the open sea and I would not seek to discount your own experience of this. However, how often did you spend a week walking in thigh deep snow wearing shorts, socks and lower leg insulation? This is the experience I am drawing on here, not simply that of having experienced cold weather.
Graham, I would love to have a go at making a subpaenula. The problem is that I have no idea what one would look like.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
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I'm following this thread with great interest. On a side note, how big of a hood should a paenula have? Should it be big enough to fit over the helmet?
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What would be the point of a paenula with a hood, if you can't put your helmet with it? Ok, I don't have sources either ...
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Cripvs,
What do you suppose they did for weaving the socks if not naalbinding?
Tarbicus....socks can be desgined differently for different reasons. That childs sock is just thrown together, it is not made well.
I would think a legionary would have to have socks that fit his purpose...possibly open so it does not sweat. Maybe not too thick
or maybe very thick because of the use in the caligae or calcei.
IMHO yes the childs sock is evidence for socks in that socks were around. No more or less. That legionary socks were made using
the same technique or same material.....who knows. But that is the point....there is no absolute proof and what we have is
described as "can be" NOT "it is". That is all I am saying.
Trousers, who really knows. I just find it silly that a conquering civilization that survived for 1000 years or so would just
not use some sort of pants to keep warm.
I know about Augustus but in my opinion he is not relavent. He could wear how ever many tunics he wanted because he could afford them
and in any color he wanted. He did not have to carry all the extra weight while the legionary would have to carry everything. Then
from Suetonius, if I recall correctly, Augustus was not an imposing figure and rather frail with abdominal problems. If you have
stomach or intestinal issues, you are not eating like everyone esle. You spend most your time in the bathroom. Hence he was quite thin and not very strong.
You cannot physically compare him with a hardened, beaten up, legionary who could probably eat dirt and ask for seconds. Legionaris
were not gods or super human but I am guite sure they weathered climate much better than Augustus.
I understand and agree with the argument of layered clothing working. But is there a source that legionaries specifically wore
multiple tunics in their tents?
My two cents
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Paolo
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This topic is wandering from trousers to socks, and now paenulae and hoods are entering the room. Should we rename this thread into 'Winter clothing' or perhaps start separate threads about socks and cloaks?
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Quote:That childs sock is just thrown together, it is not made well.
It's two thousand years old. Until you make and wear a pair you have no justification for forming such a strong opinion.
Quote:Trousers, who really knows.
But we do know. There isn't a single representation of a Roman, let alone a legionary, wearing even femenalia, which still leave the lower leg exposed, until the early 2nd-C AD.
Quote:You cannot physically compare him with a hardened, beaten up, legionary who could probably eat dirt and ask for seconds.
But aren't you doing doing exactly that, and transposing most modern westerners' preference for trousers in cold weather onto "a hardened, beaten up, legionary who could probably eat dirt and ask for seconds"?
There is an excpetion - kilts. Many wearers don't even use underpants. Kilt wearers at this forum link complain mostly about cold ears and hands.
And this still doesn't get around the plain and simple fact that Crispus has done it for a week in deep snow with no issues.
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To go back to your example of Augustus and your following conjecture, there is literary evidence for Romans, at that time, regarding the wearing of trousers as un-Roman and barbaric.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:Should we rename this thread into 'Winter clothing'
Probably, and since all the garments mentioned do fit in that category, if there are no objections from the originators of the thread, it would seem a logical course of action, especially since the discussion is productive and informative.
What do you say, Crispvs? Tarbicus? Doc?
Isn't there a razor handle that was found (don't know the date) showing a leg with caliga and sock?
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Yes, Crispvs posted a link to the razor handle with the leg and sock above.
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Fine by me EmDem
There have been a number of razor items that appear to show socks. This example shows a herringbone pattern. When compared to actual naalbinded socks, the pattern is different.
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/71544
http://vikinghandcraft.blogspot.co.uk/20...nding.html (large image when clicked on)
More razor handle socks from the Portable Antiquities Scheme:
http://finds.org.uk/database/search/resu...NCL-920745
CAM-DDFE12 also has a herringbone pattern.
GLO-443DF8 shows a ribbed top to the sock, while the rest of the sock is plain.
Dating for the handles is either mid 1st-C to 5th-C AD, or just 'ROMAN' :whistle:
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