Legate/Tribune helmet hunt

[caiusbeerquitius]

Not for the first time, you yourself break the rules.

What I do or don´t does not make your actions better or worse.

Clearly, and understandably given that English is not your first language, you have misunderstood what I wrote and assumed a personal meaning that is not there over my use of the word 'pedantic' ( and probably you may not understand the word itself). In doing so, you have done me an injustice.

This is the next hidden attack from your side. D

Firstly, the word itself derives from the greek 'pedagogue'/teacher and means in this context 'laying excessive stress on details' ( as teachers do), or colloquially, 'hair-splitting'. ( see also my use of the word in this post ). Clearly the use of the word itself is not a breach of the rules.

Secondly, the Grammar of the sentence:
Quote:To deny that the Autun example is of what we now refer to as 'Apulo Corinthian' is pedantic to say the least.
... refers to an act, not a person. It can be stated in other words as " Were someone to deny that the the Autun example of what we now refer to as 'Apulo Corinthian' is 'hair splitting' to say the least." Even if you (mistakenly) think the word 'pedantic' to be offensive, it was not addressed to you i.e. not personal. Clearly no breach of the rules has taken place.

Who´s splitting hairs now? :lol: :lol:
If I hadn´t already known that you´re a lawyer...

The helmet discussion is leading nowhere: Youre´right about the helmet, I´m wrong, that´s it. I regard discussing this with you any further as an utter waste of time. Be happy.

[PhilusEstilius]

Paul. I have to thank you for your excellent discription of the helmet in the Drusus picture in Robinson, I had an idea just where it was for in the past I used that particular picture to reproduce that cuirass for the late Douglas Arnold.

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Philus & Paulus D D D
To use a phrase from an old "Blood, Sweat & Tears" album..."You have made me, so very happy!!!!" D D D . I really do appreciate the information. Now, do you think that it would be appropos for my legate impression? While I do not yet have access to Robinson's book, the rest of the info IS helpful beyond words. I sincerely thank you for the information and if I can be of any help ( other than financial), let me know....I owe you fellows one

Thanks again and Salve,

Larry Mager a.k.a. Vitruvius

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I personally like the armae apulo corinthian best for a legate impression though cheek pieces should be added.

There is absolutely no uncertainty that the Autun helmet was found in a military context near one of the larger hillforts in Gaul.

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

That's interesting....I had never known exactly where it was found.....do you have any other information about this helmet, which appears as your avatar?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Well this is the helmet...



Where it was supposed to have been found:

About 25 km from Bibracte in the 1800's, deep in AEDUI territory, the present Burgundy (Bourgogne) where Alesia (alise st Reine and Dijon are also found, but to the north of Autun..)

The town of Autun, founded by DIVvS AvGvSTvS in the first century also has the remains of a very large IANvS temple.



M.VIB.M.

You can look in Google earth for Bibracte, and alesia to see the geographical distances comparing them to Autun itself.

For those who read French, like lucky me, there is lots of info to find..

http://www.arbre-celtique.com/encyclope ... n-1365.htm

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That really is a facinating helmet, is it defiantely Roman, or is it more likely to be of Celtic origin?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Personally i do not think it to be Celtic/Gallic since the Greek/hellenistic influence (Apulo Corinthian) is obvious compared to Celtic or Gallic helmets of the era, like these...







So i am quite convinced the Autun helmet is Roman.

M.VIB.M.

[Dany Boy]

Beautiful looking helmets, thanks for sharing this information!
We can only guess how strong was the Hellenic influence over the helmets of Roman noble and senior officers and elite soldiers as well until the end of I BC and even after this time!
Agrippina and Nero
http://www.neroprediction.com/gallery.html
[attachment=6:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia6 3887273731_b7fb225a7e_o.jpg<!-- ia6 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
Statue group of an eminent family from early 1st century CE
[attachment=5:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia5 12.jpg<!-- ia5 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
[attachment=4:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia4 21.jpg<!-- ia4 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
I fount this photo in this book which may depict marines before the battle of Actium!
[attachment=3:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia3 1.jpg<!-- ia3 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
1st century BC Nile Mosaic of Palestrina
[attachment=2:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia2 1st century BC Nile Mosaic of Palestrina.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
One of my suggestions for a good looking Roman helmet which belongs to not ordinary soldiers is for example this Deepeeka Celtic helmet!
Italian reenactors found how useful this helmet may be!
[attachment=1:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia1 59139_1615855958921_1311998067_31664756_5735823_n.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:cxxtobeb][attachment=0:cxxtobeb]<!-- ia0 Clipboard01.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:cxxtobeb]
I personally hope Deepeeka to let us have it but made by Brass.
With small cutting procedures to reduce the size of two lateral sides and the neck shelter too we could have really not bad version of a helmet which may be wear by Roman senior officers!

[Crispvs]

Hmmm.... The second helmet pictured in Henk's post reminds me both of an Agen type helmet and a Boeotian type helmet, as it seems to combine features of both. It makes me wonder if the Agen type was in some way descended from the Boeotian type. The Gauls were copying Greek coins - might they have been copying Greek helmets too? Do we have a context and a date for that helmet?

On the front of Italo-Corinthian helmets (or Apulio-Corinthian if you prefer), I have often wondered whether the third century helmets featuring a long peak with an embossed face on the top might be third century descendants of the Italo-Corinthian. They certainly seem to be the type of helmet being worn by Probus etc. on their coins. If we are right in thinking senior officers wore Italo-Corinthian helmets, these helmets will probably have developed over time in the same way that other helmet types did over time.
To say that the Autun helmet is not an Italo-Corinthian helmet is to put to one side the likely possibility that there may have been many other helmets which would have formed a linking sequence between the fourth century BC and the first century AD helmets which have either not survived or which have yet to be discovered or published. If the third century helmets are related, as I have speculated, that would provide further support for the idea of many missing officers' helmets which would feature elements which would be common to both the fourth century BC helmets and the Autun helmet.

Crispvs

[MartinWard]

Bit new in the thread here but looking for a suitable helmet for a marine depiction, must say the last piccy looked good and add cheek guards would look really good, was considering the psuedo corinthian helmet from Armae as well and adding cheek guards to that, aiming for 1st /2nd ad period, comments anyone?????

martin

[caiusbeerquitius]

I wouldn´t. There´s not a single Apulo-Corinthian helmet found with cheek pieces (the Autun-helmet is not a "real" Apulo-Corinthian, it is more an artistic "memory" of one). Neither do we have any Apulo-Corinthians extant from that time. That helmet of yours would be a fantasy-helmet, then.

[Crispvs]

Christian,

I'm not sure if you read my post. I thought you might want to respond. :wink:

Crispvs

[caiusbeerquitius]

No,I didn´t, sorry.

On the front of Italo-Corinthian helmets (or Apulio-Corinthian if you prefer), I have often wondered whether the third century helmets featuring a long peak with an embossed face on the top might be third century descendants of the Italo-Corinthian. They certainly seem to be the type of helmet being worn by Probus etc. on their coins. If we are right in thinking senior officers wore Italo-Corinthian helmets, these helmets will probably have developed over time in the same way that other helmet types did over time.
To say that the Autun helmet is not an Italo-Corinthian helmet is to put to one side the likely possibility that there may have been many other helmets which would have formed a linking sequence between the fourth century BC and the first century AD helmets which have either not survived or which have yet to be discovered or published. If the third century helmets are related, as I have speculated, that would provide further support for the idea of many missing officers' helmets which would feature elements which would be common to both the fourth century BC helmets and the Autun helmet.

O.K. it is indeed a plausible thought, however it is difficult to prove. I would rather see a trend to copy from what was back then "old" art: The Autun helmet may rather have been inspired by older paintings or reliefs. So far we have no link from the original Apulo-Corinthians, and until we have any, we have to assume that there are none. The same would IMO be the case for those helmets with faces on a long "beak". They are even less related to the "real" Apulo-Corinthians, and again there is no continuity in the material culture. We have to discern the original helmets (like the nice one from Heddernheim) from depictions on coins. There is indeed a continuity in DEPICTING the helmets possible (although I am not sure, if there are depictions from e.g. the 2nd century, which then would leave us with a 100year-break, which is quite a while), but that doesn´t tell us whether they were worn or not. The 3rd c. helmets are basically of the Pfrondorf type (functionally), but have the face on the "beak"...
Note also, that those late helmets show "real" faces, not the mask of an Apulo-Corinthian. So it´s even more difficult to see some form of continuity here.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hey, Elvis was a Roman!!!
Any more photos of the second helmet Christian?