Macedonian Silver Shields

[Paralus]

Apologies for the length: it's been a long day and much to catch up with.

Paullus Scipio\\n[quote]There are so may assumptions, jumps to conclusions, and out-and-out misinterpretations in the last few posts, I hardly know where to begin !
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If, as it seems, Philip is on foot then these troops are what are later known as the “royal hypaspistsâ€

[MeinPanzer]

Ruben wrote;-

Not all peltai were rimless; many just had smaller rims than most hopla but had rims nonetheless.

...that's interesting, on the face of it , any sort of rim would make using a sarissa difficult, if not impossible...... can you give more details ? What is the context? Is it certain these rimmed shields are associated with sarrissaphoroi ?

Though there are many other sources which probably show phalangites bearing such shields, the only ones that I would present as evidence are the only two representations of phalangites bearing sarissai I've ever found in Hellenistic art.

One is very obscure, and I haven't yet written it up, so I'd rather not post it, but it is a votive relief of unknown provenance carved in high relief and with realistically-proportioned figures much like the battle scene from the monument of Aemilius Paullus. It is fragmentary and only two figures are shown: a phalangite in the foreground, advancing to the left (so that we see him from a three-quarter rear view) carrying a long spear (both ends are broken off) with both hands at a slightly upward angle. On his left arm is a very large shield with a fairly small offset rim. The shield is large enough that it would stretch from his chin to the mid-thigh level were he standing up straight. It should be noted that there is a strap running around his neck which could be a telamon, but there is a trace of an effaced scabbard hanging on his left side as well, so it is more probable that it is a baldric. The second figure, behind the phalangite, is a thureophoros wearing an exomis and carrying a sword, which he is raising over his head to strike with. The style is second century BC.

The other is the Pergamon battle plate, which is also second century, and which shows two phalangites with a battle standard. It can be seen here:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oAAnR-Jxp2 ... escene.jpg

Notice that not only do the shields held by the phalangites have small rims (one more than the other), but their shields are entirely unlike what we normally hear about phalangite shields, being large and deeply concave.

[hoplite14gr]

Lonche is also the spear point.

A Greek would use the term Aspis to describe generically any type of shield.
Some times they decribe specific shiled type with its name some times not.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Stefanos wrote:-

Lonche is also the spear point.

...generally only Herodotus uses it in this sense...longche can also mean the plural of spear, roughly "set of spears" which describes a pair of throwing spears admirably....Longche and pelte were the traditional equipment of the Macedonian warrior....

[Paullus Scipio]

Meinpanzer wrote:-

Notice that not only do the shields held by the phalangites have small rims (one more than the other), but their shields are entirely unlike what we normally hear about phalangite shields, being large and deeply concave.

...so 'many just had smaller rims' comes down to a single depiction ? ( leaving aside your sculpture for the moment)...btw I couldn't get your link to work, but found it from the RTW forum .....To my eye, there are no rims on those shields, which look very like the (rimless) archaeolgical example Gioi posted on page 1 of this thread. )

[Paullus Scipio]

"Isn’t that just like a lawyer eh? All confident in his own suppositions and assumptions whilst rubbishing others’."

…nice line, Mike…and I thought you weren’t going to hold being a lawyer against me ? :wink:
However, I don’t make any suppositions here, merely refer to the actual equipment found in a contemporary Royal Tomb for fighting on foot.

[color=blue][i]"My argument is that the Argyraspids/hypaspists fought in both “panopliesâ€

[Paralus]

"even to terming the Pages somatophylakes " ….and why shouldn’t one of the functions of the Pages in close attendance on the King be as bodyguards ?

Which is, of course, one of their duties. Problem is, Diodorus refers to them directly as he does the "seven". Not in terms as one of their duties. It is confusion; nothing more.

"There is the case of the infantry placed on horse but, as these were with the king in his pursuit and were evidently capable riders, they will have been royal hypaspists."

…on the strength of this, I’m surprised you don’t suggest that the Hypaspists were cavalry too….. if we accept your interpretation of this passage, there is more evidence for that supposition than the ‘double panoply’ idea.

Nice, though a little facetious.

Without begining an entirely different thread, the reference is to the noble Guards: the Royal Hypaspists. Arrian clearly delineates between the two. In short, graduates of the Paides Basilikoi, the agema of the hypaspists. As sons of the nobles they will have well known how to ride.

"The front entrance is guarded by two men, both armed with the sarissa"……or rather, so it is said. I haven’t seen these, have you? The figures are apparently close to lifesize and will be like others on similar tombs –shown leaning on a shafted weapon of indeterminate type – there simply isn’t room in a tomb for an artist to depict a sarissa !

Yes, I have. Only in photgraphic plates though. They are either weilding sarissae or ancient Macedonian flag poles. You might be able to google it up...I haven't tried as I've the plates. Perhaps Stephanos or Giannis has access to something?

I could attempt a scan, just don't know how well it'd show up.

"In any case, without definitive evidence we will not ever know for certain." …but on balance of probability?... It appears we will have to agree to disagree. ……as so often in these kind of debates !! Let us leave it there then, pending further evidence……

Indeed.

On the subject of the guards at the symposium, aristocratic prickliness or not, Alexander’s guard will have been present. That he snatched a spear from a ‘confidential bodyguardâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:-
[quote]On the subject of the guards at the symposium, aristocratic prickliness or not, Alexander’s guard will have been present. That he snatched a spear from a ‘confidential bodyguardâ€

[Paralus]

Indeed Paul, indeed. Perhaps I shall invite mr Bosworth along? He is actually giving a most interesting paper at the Alexander Symposium in the States next April.

I'd kill to be there. Can't do having spent the savings going there and Greece last Jan/Feb.

I'll attempt a scan sometime tonight. Problem is that it is a large book (dimesions as well as number of pages): pity the exhibition wasn't last January.

I'll post the result or an apologia for its absence....

[MeinPanzer]

...so 'many just had smaller rims' comes down to a single depiction ? ( leaving aside your sculpture for the moment)...btw I couldn't get your link to work, but found it from the RTW forum .....To my eye, there are no rims on those shields, which look very like the (rimless) archaeolgical example Gioi posted on page 1 of this thread. )

First, I am only using these two examples because these are the only definite depictions of phalangites that we have. I can draw on other sources carrying Macedonian shields, but those could, of course, be soldiers who fought in some other sort of manner.

Second, look at the man holding his shield in profile behind the phalangite wearing the crested pilos helmet. That is definitely a pronounced rim. The example Gioi posted does not project at all when viewed in profile (other than the dagged teeth as it appears now, which would have been folded inwards anyway). Like I said, the rims aren't large, but they are still there.

[geala]

Could someone post a correct link? The one above is broken and I don't find it in the RTW forum. To see the picture would be very interesting.

[MeinPanzer]

Could someone post a correct link? The one above is broken and I don't find it in the RTW forum. To see the picture would be very interesting.

Sorry, intended to post it in that last post but forgot. Here it is:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... escene.jpg

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Very interesting link!!!.But Ruben.haven't you though this effect happens because of a broken piece piece or something?The profile of this shield is fairly different from the rest of the shields...

[MeinPanzer]

Very interesting link!!!.But Ruben.haven't you though this effect happens because of a broken piece piece or something?The profile of this shield is fairly different from the rest of the shields...

I don't see any indication of damage around that area of the relief as it has been drawn, so I don't see any reason to think so. The shield of the dead or dying man on the far right of the scene also has a pronounced rim, albeit one that doesn't project as much as that one. As I said before, there is also that other relief which shows a shield with a rim that projects out almost as far as that of the phalangite in the non-crested pilos.

[geala]

Indeed very interesting. Nice to see that the pilos helmet was apparently still in use at that late date. The rims of the shields are clearly visible, although the shield of the phalangite with the crested pilos could also be interpreted as rimless.

What were the enemies of the phalangites? Galatians and Greeks or Asians?

What makes us sure that phalangites with sarissai were depicted? That the position of the arms seems to indicate a two-handed hold? Couldn't warriors with a shorter spear and a one hand hold be depicted?

Very strange is the position of the shield of the first phalangite with the crested pilos. The deepest part of the shield is shown to the right of the spear/pike. How could someone manage to handle shield and pike in such a way with a two hands hold? A strap or something else, from which the shield could be supported, can not be seen. He must have hold the left hand in reverse (?), otherwise he might have been an anatomical monster :lol: (or the depiction is just bad).

It is a bit impudent but it would be very interesting to see also the other example mentioned by you, Ruben, not mainly because of the sarissa problem but in general. :wink: Is armour seen on it? What sword does the thureophoros have? From your explanations I get the clue that he wears no armour.