Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:MeinPanzer:3skhn3v1 Wrote:Paullus Scipio:3skhn3v1 Wrote:Quote:They come from a variety of places - Anatolia (Bithinyans,Lycians,Pisidians) Greece (Aechea,Crete - this is the source for cretan red tunics, by the way) etc.
Your source for the Cretan red tunic wouldn't happen to be the Sidonian stele of Diodotos the Cretan, would it? If so, are you aware of the stele of Chalkokedes the Cretan, c. 200 BC from Demetrias in Macedonia? He is a mercenary archer who wears a white tunic with a dark blue cloak. So, if we include this evidence, white is as likely as red.
Do you have a coloured picture of the stele of Chalkokedes available? It sounds very interesting.
I have one on my computer at home but it is unfortunately a modern picture taken after the stele has very badly faded and only the faint outline of the cloak and shield can be seen. His small oval shield (without boss/spine, so not a thureos) was turquoise with an image of Hercules on it and he wore a bronze Thraco-Attic helmet. His dagger, strangely, was curved, which is unlike anything seen in use among the Greeks of the Hellenistic world save for an example of a curved dagger on the Pergamene weapons reliefs.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 254
Threads: 12
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation:
0
If it is possible to detect: is it a real white (bleached linen?) or off-white (natural wool?) tunic? Is it sleeved or sleeveless? Is the cloak a chlamys?
Is the dagger sheated? What kind is the sheat? It's a shame but I have never seen a Greek warrior depicted with a sheated dagger, so every information is welcomed.
Sorry for ot.
To say at least a little bit about the very interesting Carthaginian reenactment: in my humble opinion the representation of a "Roman like" Carthaginian warrior would be the second best alternative. Better to look as different as possible and accent the national specialities (even if some aspects are not clear) to have diversity and for educational purposes.
Wolfgang Zeiler
Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
Yeah, Dan Z. ----got to endorse Wolfgang's comment - different is better...have you decided on an impression yet ?
Tell us what you intend working toward!
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Posts: 111
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
I also agree with Wolfgang comment - different is better - so I would rather not do any sort of Roman clone.
Since I am already so close to a caetrati impression I'll defintely finish that one off - really all I need is a white tunic trimmed in scarlet or purple, a wide metal belt, and footwear other than my caligae. We haven't even discussed footwear yet, but I am going to say Hannibal's army wore the much same footwear as seen on carvings of Spanish warriors from the same time - it looks like a short boot.
My goal though is to put together a Carthaginian officer impression - I am not fond of the pilos type helmet the rank and file seem to have worm...although whether or not they were uniform is anyone's guess. At any rate, I am rather fond of some of the Thracian variety helmets - particularly the sort represented by the mysterious Deepeeka Alexander the Great helm. Mysterious because I have never seen a really good photo of it nor any comments as to its accuracy. I need to research it and see if it will work. Option 2 is a modified Corinthian which might literally be a Corinthian that I modified - I have had a Corinthinian on backorder from Albion close to forever now because all they seem to get are small helmets. A small Corinthian fits me much the same as one of the modified Cornithinians would fit me - I think all I would have to do would be to grind away some of the back edge so the helmet will sit a little further forward, rivet chinstraps onto the thing, and maybe put a crest on it.
Not sure yet if an officer would have a round shield or a thureos...I'll probably go with a thureos. Which reminds me - I need to sketch out some thureos type shield emblems.
I could cheat and just use the Spanish type tunic with the scarlet or purple trim...or you mentioned a poet described the Cathaginians are wearing purple tunics a few posts back Paul so it might be interesting to make one of those.
The same poem mentioned scale armor - the idea of making a full scale cuirass makes my head spin but there is the Etruscan urn showing a composite scale cuirass. Just the chest and shoulders had scales in that picture - I could do that. Maybe. Going without armor is another possibility.
Another possibility we have not even mentioned is triple disc armor - on page 111 of Greece and Rome at War there is a picture of triple disc armor that was found in a (presumably) Carthaginian tomb in Tunisia. Very elaborate stuff, but I could get or even make something that was simpler.
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
All of those sound good, Dan.
The triple disc type was almost certainly taken to Africa by a South Italian mercenary....... also an interesting choice------but not pure Carthaginian/African.
But , hey, Dan.... look at all the choice you have !!
Carthage and Hannibal rocks, when it comes to re-enactment choices !!!!!!!
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Posts: 111
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
I agree - Carthage and Hannibal do rock for just that reason. The range of choices are almost mind-numbing!
I am leaning very much toward that composite cuirass. It would be the most distinct and I already have one mostly made up.
My goal is to have all this done at least by the Legio XX Roman Days 2008 event. As I mentioned, we always have a Samnite and two Celts in the non-Roman camp - throw in a Carthaginian and we'll have the beginnings of a conspiracy against Rome. :lol:
Then there is that other event we participate in where the event organizers mentioned they wanted to look into the possibility of offering elephant rides duing next year's event. I am not so sure how feasible that is - I believe the laws are fairly strict when it comes to elephants due to concern for the health and well-being of the elephant on the one hand and on the other hand because out of control elephants are very dangerous to anyone and anything around them and pretty much impossible for local law enforcement to stop. There are places in the US that offer elephant rides, but they are very controlled environments where there isn't much chance for anything to send one of the elephants into a panic.
At any rate, if they are able to get an elephant then having the impression done for that event will be a must. Although based on Carthaginian coins, the troops on elephants just wore tunics, cloaks and Phyrgian caps (heck...I have all those already...I could portray dismounted elephant cavalry!) but apparently Hannibal rode into a city on the back of an elephant so it wouldn't be entirely unheard of for a Carthaginian officer to be on one. :lol:
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:If it is possible to detect: is it a real white (bleached linen?) or off-white (natural wool?) tunic? Is it sleeved or sleeveless? Is the cloak a chlamys?
Even if I saw a painting of a tunic made today I don't think I would be able to tell if it was bleached or natural! The best I can describe it is off-white. The tunic is short sleeved. Yes, the archaeologist who discovered it called it a chlamys, but I don't know what other kind of cloak it could be, since almost every cloak worn by a Greek is just called a chlamys, even if it's just a rolled up bundle.
Quote:Is the dagger sheated? What kind is the sheat? It's a shame but I have never seen a Greek warrior depicted with a sheated dagger, so every information is welcomed.
It's a a curved dagger hanging from a baldric in a sheath. I have not seen a good picture of the dagger so I have to rely on the descriptions of others, unfortunately.
I'm heading to the museum that houses this stele in about two months, so I'm going to see if I can talk to a curator and maybe wrangle an old picture or two of it from when the paint was much better preserved.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 976
Threads: 82
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
3
Quote:I'm heading to the museum that houses this stele in about two months, so I'm going to see if I can talk to a curator and maybe wrangle an old picture or two of it from when the paint was much better preserved.
Which museum is that, btw?
Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:Quote:I'm heading to the museum that houses this stele in about two months, so I'm going to see if I can talk to a curator and maybe wrangle an old picture or two of it from when the paint was much better preserved.
Which museum is that, btw?
The Volos Archaelogical Museum in... Volos! Its main exhibit is the collection of painted Hellenistic stelae from Pagasai and Demetrias. It seems that almost all are civilian (and many very well preserved), but there are a few soldiers in there. Chalkokedes is the only military stele I've ever seen a picture or a good description of, though.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 976
Threads: 82
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
3
Quote:The Volos Archaelogical Museum in... Volos! Its main exhibit is the collection of painted Hellenistic stelae from Pagasai and Demetrias. It seems that almost all are civilian (and many very well preserved), but there are a few soldiers in there. Chalkokedes is the only military stele I've ever seen a picture or a good description of, though.
Sounds great -- take plenty of pictures!
Stelae:
http://www.math.unm.edu/ACA/2002/volos/museum2.jpg
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Pain ... eStele.jpg
http://ulysse.saloff.free.fr/IMG/jpg/gt ... os_001.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/ ... philon.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t4.html
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t6.html
Also, do you know the tomb of Eubolos?
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t18.html
Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:[
Sounds great -- take plenty of pictures!
Stelae:
http://www.math.unm.edu/ACA/2002/volos/museum2.jpg
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Pain ... eStele.jpg
http://ulysse.saloff.free.fr/IMG/jpg/gt ... os_001.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/ ... philon.jpg
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t4.html
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t6.html
I will, and I'll post them here if they are good! My particular favourite of the Pagasai Demetrias stelae is the woman dying in childbirth- it's a very interesting scene.
Quote:Also, do you know the tomb of Eubolos?
http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/image_archive/tombs/t18.html
It's not a tomb so much as a tombstone, but yes. It's a Boeotian tombstone, IIRC, and probably of a thureophoros cavalryman.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 976
Threads: 82
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
3
Quote:It's not a tomb so much as a tombstone
Certainly, I misspoke.
Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
To Dan Z. :-
I can see a famous photo op. of "Hannibal" mounted on his elephant happening yet ! 8)
Some more information on this subject. The incident you referred to was Hannibal's triumphal entry into Capua, after it defected to him following Cannae (216 b.c.).
Contrary to popular belief, not all Hannibal's elephants were the North African kind ! Some at least were Indian. Cato recorded that the bravest elephant was called Sura which translates as "the Syrian". Syria was where the Ptolemies had captured Indian elephants from the Seleucids, and Ptolemy had almost certainly supplied Carthage.
During the severe winter of 218/217 b.c. ,Hannibal lost the last of his elephants save one, in all likelihood Cato's Sura. (He also lost an eye, either as a result of opthalmia, or a wound in a skirmish.)
In support of this is a bronze coin found in the Chiana valley, on Hannibal's route to Lake Trasimene, and minted c.217b.c, which shows the head of an African (negroid features,curly hair), and on the reverse, an obviously Indian elephant, rather than the usual African depicted on such coins, and so the coin almost certainly shows Hannibal's last elephant,Sura
This is rather fortuitous, as any circus elephant etc you come across is going to be Indian ! You could get the mahout to wear hooded cloak etc while you ride resplendant in purple and fine armour on the back, accepting the acclamation of the troops and crowds !!
Definitely an impression worth striving toward !! 
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Posts: 111
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
One thing I find amusing about the subject of riding elephants - when my sisters and I were very young our parents took us to a Zoo or some such place that offered elephant rides. I remember being surprised to see the elephant had some bristly hairs on top of its head, but that is about it.
I find it amusing that while I have never sat on a horse in my life, I can say that I have ridden an elephant. :lol:
That was a long time ago though - I reckon nowadays the closest I will probably get is permission to stand in front of and a safe distance away from an elephant at a zoo. Not so sure the zoo people would be too keen on the idea - marching nearly 40 elephants from Spain to Italy and losing a few at a time to river crossings, mountain crossings, battles, etc until there was only one left does not exactly bespeak animal conservation. :?
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
Nah, Dan ! You have been on an elephant before - the auspices are good - Ba'al and Mel'kart and Tanit smile on you !!!
GO FOR IT ! MAKE IT HAPPEN !!!!!
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
|
