Makedonian Armour

[MeinPanzer]

Thanks, MeinPanzer. I was going to suggest that the statuettes' armour might have been painted bronze before I saw the museum photo above. There is evidence for bronze armour painted a variety of colours. Still, that cuirass in the other photo does look like iron, so it looks like iron plate cuirasses were sometimes used in Classical times.

I'm curious, what evidence do you have for bronze cuirasses being painted different colours?

[hoplite14gr]

There is pottery evidence of "checker board" decoration on helmets.
Pottery from British museum show a "checker board" shiled and armor.
The armor might be linothorax though (I am not sure on this).
The images appeared on Opsreys "Marathon" and "Peloponesian War" titles.

Painted hlemtes appear on Macedonian grave frascoes and the armor was probably (big if here) if the owner wanted or could afford it.

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

Dont have to go that far to know from wich period its Julius ...But I understand you, I want to do the same.

I found this in Seleucid book...its striking the same cuirass & helmet

PS: soory I scanned too bright.


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Seems Kalimachos lose interest in this matter.

Other than a few superficial similarities, those two are actually dissimilar. For the helmet, the Corfu example is Thraco-Attic, with a pointed "crimped" brim, while the example from the Pergamene weapons reliefs lacks the crest and the pointed "crimp" on either side. The Corfu cuirass has a flared bottom, while the Pergamene cuirass does not. The Corfu cuirass also seems to have much less pronounced muscle detail.

There is pottery evidence of "checker board" decoration on helmets.
Pottery from British museum show a "checker board" shiled and armor.
The armor might be linothorax though (I am not sure on this).
The images appeared on Opsreys "Marathon" and "Peloponesian War" titles.

Painted hlemtes appear on Macedonian grave frascoes and the armor was probably (big if here) if the owner wanted or could afford it.

Yes, I am aware of the evidece for painted armour, but I was curious what Sean's evidence was for specifically painted bronze cuirasses.

[Kallimachos]

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Seems Kalimachos lose interest in this matter.

Wrong my friend. I wasn't able to read these days and it's really fasciniation to read now all of you new postings and thanks to everyone.

I am still not sure if my question is really answered. I got an iron cuirass and I was thinking if I could really wear it as a Hypaspist in this period.

[Kallimachos]

Thanks for the tip Gioi. I already got Armies of the macedon & punic wars. I was just unsure about the iron muscled cuirass.

[john m roberts]

Is there any indication of what the Indian-made armor was like? Was it native in design, or were the Indian smiths given Greek/Macedonian armor to copy? Come to think of it, the Indians make a bit of that stuff now.

[Sean Manning]

Thanks, MeinPanzer. I was going to suggest that the statuettes' armour might have been painted bronze before I saw the museum photo above. There is evidence for bronze armour painted a variety of colours. Still, that cuirass in the other photo does look like iron, so it looks like iron plate cuirasses were sometimes used in Classical times.

I'm curious, what evidence do you have for bronze cuirasses being painted different colours?

I can't think of any certain evidence off the top of my head, but I think it might well have been done. There are a lot of helmets on vases that were likely painted, being decorated with checkered patterns or the like (although some of them may have been of composite construction). Some helmets on the Alexander Sarcophagus were painted blue and yellow. Somewhere on this forum there is a painting of a hoplite in painted armour based on the artist's interpretation of some reference in art or literature. We know many medieval helmets and other pieces of armour were painted in colourful designs because we have intact examples. This at least proves that plate armour meant to be used in battle was painted in some cultures.

[Paullus Scipio]

A most interesting thread, and the Corfu cuirass and helmet are very interesting - nice to see what the iron cavalry cuirass given to Demetrius might have looked like.
For John Roberts :
Alas, Deepeeka were not around in Alexander's day !
The armour with which the army re-equipped in India was brought from home - "At this juncture there arrived from Greece, allied and mercenary troops under their own commanders, more than 30,000 infantry and a little less than 6,000 cavalry. They brought with them elegant suits of armour for 25,000 foot soldiers, and a hundred talents of medical supplies.These he distributed to the soldiers." (Diodorus 17.95.4 ) and the old rotting, flea and lice ridden stuff was burnt (Curtius 9.3.22 )

[john m roberts]

I loved that "elegant" part. Alexander wanted his men to look spiffy!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Alexander had the MONEY to have his men look spiffy!The same as the Great King and his persian elite...
Khaire

[Paullus Scipio]

Very true ! And the soldiers were wealthy too in their own right and could afford, as the ancients put it, "the choicest arms".
And we can guess where much of the wealth went, either official or private, when we see the hypaspists evolve into the argyraspides (Silver Shields !! )

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It's logical that they invested in their job!And they were still ancient warriors,like every one else their appearance was some times their biggest priority.I'd love to see this army,or Agesilaus',just for a moment!
Khaire
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

It would be amazing to see one of these ancient armies for even a moment. There is so much we don't know! But we know it would have been splendid.

Judging by the Alexander Sarcophagus, the Persian elite and their Macedonian successors could wear saffron and Tyrian purple on a hunt. Battle scenes from the same source seems to show linothoraxes dyed in the same colours.

[MeinPanzer]

I can't think of any certain evidence off the top of my head, but I think it might well have been done. There are a lot of helmets on vases that were likely painted, being decorated with checkered patterns or the like (although some of them may have been of composite construction). Some helmets on the Alexander Sarcophagus were painted blue and yellow.

Some helmets were painted, yes, but I'd be very careful with those Alexander Sarcophagus helmets- blue was often used to represent iron in ancient art and yellow bronze, so they most likely actually weren't painted.

Somewhere on this forum there is a painting of a hoplite in painted armour based on the artist's interpretation of some reference in art or literature. We know many medieval helmets and other pieces of armour were painted in colourful designs because we have intact examples. This at least proves that plate armour meant to be used in battle was painted in some cultures.

Yes, there is proof of armour being painted in other times and other cultures, and helmets being painted by the Greeks, but I have yet to see very conclusive evidence that metal cuirasses were painted.

Judging by the Alexander Sarcophagus, the Persian elite and their Macedonian successors could wear saffron and Tyrian purple on a hunt. Battle scenes from the same source seems to show linothoraxes dyed in the same colours.

If you actually look at the colour evidence from the late Classical and the Hellenistic period, purple seems to have been nowhere near as uncommon as most would expect. The two cavalrymen from the Aghios Athanasios paintings come to mind- both wear linothorakes entirely dyed purple, pteruges and all.

[Sean Manning]

I can't think of any certain evidence off the top of my head, but I think it might well have been done. There are a lot of helmets on vases that were likely painted, being decorated with checkered patterns or the like (although some of them may have been of composite construction). Some helmets on the Alexander Sarcophagus were painted blue and yellow.

Some helmets were painted, yes, but I'd be very careful with those Alexander Sarcophagus helmets- blue was often used to represent iron in ancient art and yellow bronze, so they most likely actually weren't painted.

Regarding colour on the sarcophagus, I follow the opinion of those who have looked at all the colour sources for it, such as Sekunda and McBride. But it is a pity that we have no weapons on the sarcophagus to compare colours with!

IIRC the famous painting of a Alexander-era cavalryman (a prodromoi?) wears some purple too. However, the Alexander sarcophagus largely depicts nobles, and we know Alexander captured and issued great quantities of Tyrian purple cloth. So even if there was some other decent purple dye, I suspect the purple on the sarcophagus was Tyrian.

Thinking about one-piece iron cuirasses, the main reason I doubt they existed was that I don't think large enough iron plates could be reliably produced anywhere in the world before 1400 or so in Europe. One-piece iron helms are hard enough to make with earlier technology!

I haven't heard of that painting you refer to- perhaps I will Google it.