women serving in the Roman army??

[Paullus]

I was thinking about this discovery and had a thought. The female skeletons haven't been identified as from the Danube, rather it is assumed that they are from that area because the troops were. For all we know they were British prostitutes or wives of a couple soldiers. The fact that no swords were present with the ornamented scabbards leads to another question. Were they the women's or were they a devoted husband's last gift to his wife, laying his fancy scabbard on the pyre beside her in native style? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I think you make a good point, Viventia, about not making assumptions - one of the big problems with scholarship and archaeology is that academics have careers invested in their theories, so defend them in the face of all comers. They don't like to be wrong. (I'm thinking here of an instance of human footprints found between layers of prehistoric animals - I can't recall the details - that resulted in a palaentologist having his career destroyed by those whose theories his find threatened - the site was built over - )<br>
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I'm also a bit wary of the way newspapers put their own spin on things. This sort of stuff seeps into popular culture and ends up getting turned into accepted truth, with no real basis. They leave out all the ponderous stuff about theory and probability and how much we really don't know.<br>
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I find the idea of women warriors facinating.<br>
<br>
Pictoria <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

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makes you wonder if cultures with a female warrior tradition were allowed to continue that into (locally recruited) auxillia or numeri units ??<br>
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We shall never know.<br>
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How do other (21st century) units stand on letting ladies into their legions ?<br>
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[Anonymous]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the celtic tradition...<br>
Boudicca, remember?<br>
But on this one, actually, I am very, very doubtful. Warriors are usually buried with their sword, not their scabbard, amongst other things.<br>
And while we are on women of high status, the famous celtic burial at Vix, in Burgundy, where the famous huge greek-crafted bronze crater was found, as well as a very luxurious four wheel chariot and other valuable items, was the burial of a woman.. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/3/05 6:04 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

While people have mentioned German and Celtic attitudes to warrior-women, no-one's yet brought up the S word; namely, if these skeletons are connected to a Danubian numerus, could they be Sarmatian? Weapon-burials of women in some Sarmatian groups are quite frequent - see www.csen.org/WomenWarrior...riors.html for instance - though I don't know if that's true of the Danubian groups, or only further east. <p></p><i></i>

[Paullus]

I am under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the Sarmatian warrior women burials are pre-Roman contact, or very early periods of it. A reconstruction of one panoply showed the women with an akinakes, which went out of use sometime in the 2nd or 1st century BC IIRC. They may have influenced the Danubians to some degree though. When did the Sarmats reach the Danube? There were there by the 2nd century AD obviously, in time for the Dacian Wars.<br>
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Also interesting is it is the Greeks who mention the female Sarmat warriors, not the Romans so much (if at all, from my limited reading), may have something to do with the time period. It would also seem that warrior women among the barbarians would be such a strange trait that you'd expect a couple Roman writers to mention it. Would show the "barbarism" of their enemies, letting their women do such "un-feminine" things. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

In her original article (see ref in previous postage) Cool states that " ... it is unlikely that the people people at Brougham were Sarmatians, as the latter inhumed [i.e. buried] their dead" The Brougham examples are cremations; the bodies being burnt on pyres, some with their horses. The inclusion of horses with humans in a grave and in a Roman context is unique so far in Britain, and pretty rare within the Empire as a whole. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Viventia.<br>
<br>
Though the inclusion of horses _is_ reminiscent of nomad, including Sarmatian, burials and, as you say, rare in Roman contexts. And if these burials are correctly dated at 220-300, then _if_ they had anything to do with Marcus Aurelius' Sarmatian deportees, sent to Britain c.175, they've had a generation (or several) to be influenced by Roman customs and intermarry with local women. A lot of ifs, I know, but I still wouldn't be surprised if there's Sarmatian influence somewhere in the story. <p></p><i></i>

[Paullus]

It could be that the horse cremations were a thing that a Sarmatian troop picked up, in theory, from the Romans. Just did their regular burial but decided to torch the corpse. <p></p><i></i>

[Come in Nighthawk]

I have followed this string with amusement and interest. I am chuckling thinking -- speaking of "King Arthur!!" --- too bad they "hurried" and made the film two years ago!!! If they could have filmed it this year -- "Gwynefar" could have been cast as one of Arturius Castus' "Ka-niggets!!!!"<br>
<br>
Now, to briefly recap for anyone who hasn’t (or couldn’t) follow the links because their browser blocks too many popups or cookies… ;-) <em>Discovery News</em> (besides others) in an article dated Dec. 28, 2004 titled “Amazon Women Fought for Rome?â€ÂÂ

[Anonymous]

Much more detailed information about the excavation can, as Robert pointed out a few posts back, be found in the full publication of the site. The details are:<br>
<br>
" Cool, H.E.M. 2004. The Roman Cemetery at Brougham, Cumbria: Excavations 1966-67. Britannia Monograph 21. London: Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies<br>
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The rescue excavations at Brougham uncovered the largest cemetery associated with a fort in the north yet dug. They revealed a third century cemetery where not only the soldiers, but also their wives and children were cremated and buried. The dead were provided with expensive pyre goods, such as elaborately decorated biers, jewellery, military equipment, household items and a wide range of animal offerings including horses. Their remains were generally deposited with pottery vessels including a large number in samian and Rhenish colour-coated wares. It has been possible to show that all parts of the funerary ritual was strongly structured by the age and sex of the deceased. There is good evidence that the unit was originally from the Danubian frontier.<br>
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The volume includes detailed specialist reports on all aspects of the finds and funerary rituals. A database of the results is included on a CD to facilitate further analysis.<br>
<br>
July 2004, c. 550 pp., incl. 349 illus. and CD-Rom. Paperback. ISBN 0 907764 31 2. Price £68/US$136 "<br>
<br>
Details on how to purchase can be found here (scroll to the bottom of the page)<br>
<br>
www.romansociety.org/publicat.htm<br>
<br>
Fortunately, my local university library has a copy!<br>
<br>
The report on the English Heritage website is an Assessment and Project Design from 2000.<br>
<br>
btw, I mentioned that Cool says the burials are unlikely to be Sarmartians. <p></p><i></i>

[Come in Nighthawk]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>btw, I mentioned that Cool says the burials are unlikely to be Sarmartians.<hr> Sorry -- must'a missed that in the excitement of dreaming of Kiera Knightly in Late-Roman Cavalry armor -- or what Jolly-wood would have passed off for HER as such...<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>US$136<hr> Ouch! Not this month!<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is good evidence that the unit was originally from the Danubian frontier.<hr> Which brings me back to one of my first points -- what might a Roman cavalry unit be doing being "stationed," however briefly (but long enough to adopt the city's name), in Caria --- presumably under MA, Commodus, or Sept. Severus? I mean surely, yes, Sept. Severus could have rasied such a unit in Pannonia (or Moesia) for service with his three new legions in his eastern wars, but how did it come by the name, you see? Even if teh unit was older --- say perhaps MA had rasied it for his German wars? It still begs the question what was it doing in Caria??<br>
<p>==========================================<BR><br>
"If there's one thing we don't want to see, it's Americans fighting Americans. I won't stand for it, not here, not anywhere." Sergeant Frank Tree, 10th Armored Division, Saturday, 13 December 1941... a little after 0701 hrs... somewhere near Santa Monica, Calif.</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Were you referring to 21st century re-enactment units (apologies if I'm using the wrong nomencalture here) letting women in, or do you mean the actual Army?<br>
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From an observer's point of view, I tend to think women look rather anachronistic - probably no worse than overweight or unfit wannabes in armor anyhow. Let's face it, a real Roman soldier would have to be one fit, honed, sun-bronzed specimen..... I apologize if anyone who's carrying a few extra pounds too many (or too few, for that matter) takes offence at that comment - I'm no warrior myself !, just stating facts -as I see them - .<br>
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From a contemporary point of view, having served in the army myself, I can tell you that generally, infantry soldiers would probably rather die than let a female into their units. I was in a Signals unit and one of the women got beaten up (hospitalized) in an unarmed combat class purely because she was female and the blokes didn't approve of her being there. It might be different in the USA however. Frankly, unless a woman is big and strong enough to carry a man and his kit out of trouble, I don't feel she should be there anyway.<br>
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Pictoria <p></p><i></i>

[Tarbicus]

A throwaway comment here on the cuneus and numerus, and women:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/anc ... sage/55417

[Robert Vermaat]

It's difficult to get hard fact on the cuneus and the numerus.
I once had a discussion with Linda Malcor (of the King Arthur movie fame..) who seriously believed that The Ribchester Sarmatians were the total group that was supposed to have come into Britain, 5000+ soldiers with added women and children! All were supposed to have been serving in that one numerus which she totally believed to have been 5000 strong, throughout the 3rd and 4th centuries, right into the Arthurian period. Oh yes, and all roaming around the British countryside as nomads, with only the veterans actually living in Ribchester.