Late Roman Question

[John Conyard]

I have always liked the reference to the march. Anapaestic suggests step, step pause, step step pause etc.

It is a possible reference to marching in step before the early 18th century. But it is certainly a reference to a smart stylised military step. Comitatus has tried it, and it maybe time to try it again. It's purpose presumeably is to intimidate, and keep the lines dressed.

[Theodosius the Great]

Mithras,

OK, I have Ammianus' Latin quotations here in my Loeb translation.

The one you mention in book 24, 6.10 says :

So, when both sides were near enough to look each other in the face, the Romans, gleaming in their crested helmets and their swinging shields...

Ergo, ubi vicissim contiguae se cernerent partes, cristatis galeis corusci Romani visbrantesque clipeos...

And in another passage describing Constantius' triumphal entry into Rome, book 21, 10.8 says :

And there marched on either side twin lines of infantrymen with shields and crests gleaming with glittering rays clad in shining mail ...

Et incedebat hinc inde ordo geminus armatorum, clipeatus atque cristatus, corusco lumae radians ...

Now that I see he uses the word "cristatus" maybe Ammianus does indeed refer to horse-haired or feathered crests.

Thanks for pointing this out.

~Theo

[Robert Vermaat]

Now that I see he uses the word "cristatus" maybe Ammianus does indeed refer to horse-haired or feathered crests.

Interesting! Why would you say these words point to horsehair and not to metal?

[Caballo]

Why would you say these words point to horsehair and not to metal?

Now that I see he uses the word "cristatus" maybe Ammianus does indeed refer to horse-haired or feathered crests.

Interesting! Why would you say these words point to horsehair and not to metal?

Not sure its an either/ or position between horsehair or metal? Some helmets had metal crests: some didn't. Either could (eg picture above) have crests of horsehair or feathers?

[Theodosius the Great]

Now that I see he uses the word "cristatus" maybe Ammianus does indeed refer to horse-haired or feathered crests.

Interesting! Why would you say these words point to horsehair and not to metal?

Well, I think they may refer to non-metalic crests because Vegetius uses the word "crista" to refer to centurions' crests in the 'ancient' legions which, of course, did not use metalic crests. So, when Ammianus uses the same term he may be refering to the non-metalic crests that Vegetius refers to. Otherwise Ammianus is using the word in an inconsistent manner unless the term devolved into a catchall for both metal and non-metal types as Caballo says may have happened. Knowing now how Vegetius uses the term I feel somewhat more confident that Ammianus may refer to traditional crests.

~Theo

[Robert Vermaat]

Well, I think they may refer to non-metalic crests because Vegetius uses the word "crista" to refer to centurions' crests in the 'ancient' legions which, of course, did not use metalic crests. So, when Ammianus uses the same term he may be refering to the non-metalic crests that Vegetius refers to. Otherwise Ammianus is using the word in an inconsistent manner unless the term devolved into a catchall for both metal and non-metal types as Caballo says may have happened. Knowing now how Vegetius uses the term I feel somewhat more confident that Ammianus may refer to traditional crests.

Indeed. But Ammianus also calls a sword a gladius, refers to the Persians as Parthians, is the first to mention the antesignani after Caesar and seems to be using archaizing words throughout his text. :?

[Theodosius the Great]

Strange how Vegetius for once may be more reliable than Ammianus

Indeed. But Ammianus also calls a sword a gladius, refers to the Persians as Parthians, is the first to mention the antesignani after Caesar and seems to be using archaizing words throughout his text.

Hmm. I thought Roman historians always used "gladius" as a generic term for any kind of sword. If so, then Ammianus is using the term consistently, am I right ?

Yes, Ammianus does use anachronistic terms at times but I did not know he did so with military equipment. Are there clear instances of him doing this ? (I'm not asking for references, I take your word ). If there are then I'll revise my opinion accordingly.

BTW, doesn't Ammianus imply that crests were standard equipment for regular legionaries in his day ? That's what I infer from the last two references I cited earlier.

~Theo

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Jaime,

I'm not sure if Ammianus also extends his anachronisms to equipment - if you say that gladius is a normal word and not an anachronism I'll accept of course. But he also uses the word pilum in the same sentence:

AMMIANI MARCELLINI HISTORIAE LIBER XXVII. II.3:
quocirca forati pilis et gladiis cecidere conplures absque his, quos versos in pedes texere flexuosi tramites et angusti.

Sometimes we have to guess. I'm supporting the view that Ammianus talk in anachronistic words about elephants, I doubt he ever saw them in battle himself. But while Ammianus speaks of dracos, he does not mention the plumbata. I'm not sure if he uses generalistic words about missiles or that no plumbata were actually used then and there (plumbata finds in the East are worryingly low).

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Robert,

I'm not sure if Ammianus also extends his anachronisms to equipment

So far he seems trustworthy enough as far as equipment goes, IMO. Again, if I learn otherwise...

if you say that gladius is a normal word and not an anachronism I'll accept of course.

Bishop and Coulston say so on page 78 and elsewhere, I just checked. And, according to B&C, it does not specifically refer to short types of swords. IIRC, Livy or someone else uses "gladius" to refer to barbarian swords [i.e. long slashing Germano-Celtic types].

But he also uses the word pilum in the same sentence

"Pilum" (pilis) does not seem to be anachronistic either based on Vegetius. In book one, 20 (second to last paragraph) Vegetius says :

The javelins that the infantry army used were called pila, with thin, triangular iron heads 9 inches or 1 foot long, such as once lodged in a shield could not be broken off and, when thrown skillfully and with force, might easily pierce a cuirass. Weapons of this type are now rare with us, but barbarian shield-bearing infantry use these particularly , calling them bebrae, and carrying two or three each in battle. (Sorry, I don't have the Latin text)

So, pila in Vegetius' time were "rare" but not unknown. The weapon is not confused with later versions like plumbata, but he accurately describes its appearence, proper use, and deadly effect. Therefore I think it unlikely that Ammianus would misuse "pila" either.

I don't know if Ammianus mentions plumbata elsewhere but I'll be sure to check the Latin if I run into a passage where he may. (A few days ago I obtained an abridged copy of Ammianus and started reading him for the first time. I intend to read it from cover to cover ; so far I'm on book sixteen.)

~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

Here's another late Roman reference.

From Claudian's first poem, (345) :

So spake he and leapt upon the plain, and on this side Stilicho scattered the enemy bands in broadcast flight and on that Mars; alike the twain in accoutrement and stature. The helmets of either tower with bristling crests, their breastplates flash as they speed along and their spears take their fill of widely dealt wounds.

Here's the Latin :

meus ecce paratur
ad bellum Stilicho, qui me de more tropaeis
ditat et hostiles suspendit in arbore cristas

"Bristles" is, of course, associated with hair not metal.
And it appears in the context of describing a contemporary event.

~Theo