Belt Plate silvering

[Doc]

Does anyone know if the Herculeneum/Pompeii Belt plates were of solid silver or thin decorated silver foil/sheet wrapped around a brass plate which was then riveted to the belt leather

Thanks

Paolo

[Neuraleanus]

When I saw the actual plates during the Pompeii exibit. Then again, a silver wash would appear the same. I think that sliver foil would show.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I think there are of silver foil embossed aplied over a plain brass/bronze plate.

[Peroni]

I think you've seen them before Paulo..
The herculaneum belt components can be seen in this thread..
Hard to see any silvering though due to encrustation.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 792#170792

From other examples such as the Kalkriese pieces and the Velsen set I too would say thin silver foil.

[Tarbicus]

There's a belt plate in the British Museum that looks all silver, through and through. Nothing else is poking through as if it's foil or plated. It looks as delicate as a Jacobs cream cracker, and tiny (no, not so tiny it could be something else).

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I have seen one picture of that belt, in a book or review, and as i remember was as i have said. In fact, is the same way to make a plate as the Porto Novo belt plates ( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=18448 )

[Doc]

Thanks all for the reply.

The reason I asked as some of you may imagine is that I wanted to have my emperor with cornucopia belt plates made of silver.

However, when speaking with Brian Stobbs, he mentioned that the pompeii plates he believed are embossed silver sheet over brass/bronze and that if I wanted to make another set of belt plates with silver (since I am assembling a centurio kit) the more accurate way would be embossed silver sheet over brass/bronze not solid silver.

I know that the emperor cornucopia was found in brass but I would not think it unreasonable to have it in silver. However, buying thick silver sheet and punching out a belt plate is more costly then buying silver foil.

So before I would shell out a mint for .5mm thick silver sheet for both my scabbard and belt plates, I would like to make sure of some surviving examples. To this end, if the pompeii plates are in fact thin sheet (silver or tin as in the porto nuovo) over brass then I would prefer going this route.

I know that this has not been seen with sword scabbards AFAIK, but it is reasonable given the body of evidence of silver foil over brass or iron. Just look at the Gallic F helmet thread.


Paolo

Bishop also nmentions this in his book that many objects were covered with a silver foil wrapped around some backing.

[Magnus]

A question then...I have a stamp and die that I use to make my belt plates. Would it be possible to solder an entire sheet of very thin tin foil to a thin piece of brass sheet, then stamp the entire thing? Or maybe don't solder the tin at all, and just stamp them?

How was the foil originally attached to the underlying metal?

[Tarbicus]

I have seen one picture of that belt, in a book or review, and as i remember was as i have said. In fact, is the same way to make a plate as the Porto Novo belt plates ( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=18448 )

Hmmm, doesn't look the same, but I'm relying on memory here and that's showing signs of wear and tear. I'm sure it's all silver although incredibly similar, but I need to verify that.

[PhilusEstilius]

The answer to for Magnvs/Matt concerning how the silver sheet is fitted to the bronze plates, is that the relief picture has a border of around 3...4mm. This edge is cut off each corner, then the 3or 4mm is folded over the plate. This folded over edge is simply held in position by the rivets which hold the beltplate onto the leather belt.

[Neuraleanus]

of the Herculaneum belt:



There is some green showing, so maybe this is silver foil on brass plates. I think that it would been just as easy to tin the plates in silver bearing solder.

[Magnus]

The answer to for Magnvs/Matt concerning how the silver sheet is fitted to the bronze plates, is that the relief picture has a border of around 3...4mm. This edge is cut off each corner, then the 3or 4mm is folded over the plate. This folded over edge is simply held in position by the rivets which hold the beltplate onto the leather belt.

Hmmmm...so the same effect could in fact be done with thin tin-foil over brass sheet.

[PhilusEstilius]

When we think of the Herc/Pompeii plates, as with most Roman beltplates. We are thinking of beltplates in the region of 1/16 inch thick, the relief figures could not be punched out in such detail from that thickness of metal. They would have to havebeen made by the lost wax casting method, which is not the way most Roman beltplates were made, some yes of course. If we think of solid silver at that thickness, by the time one puts around 15 of them onto a belt it would cost a Kings ransom. I do not think that even the most wealthy centurian would have been able to afford the cost. These plates as with many others would have been punched from 3 to 5 thou' silversheet, then wrapped onto flat bronze plates. Then as mentioned earlier the wrap over would be held down when they are riveted to the belt, exactly as I have done now for many years when I have made Roman belts.