Sagum/Paludamentum

[Doc]

I would like some information on the the sagum and the paludamentum.

How big is the sagum supposed to be: how long (ankle length, knee length) and how wide.

What shape is the sagum supposed to be (circular, rectangular etc)?

Do the ends have fringes on the sagum?

How big is the paludamentum supposed to be: how long (ankle length, knee length) and how wide.

What shape should the paludamentum be (circular, rectangular etc)

Does anyone know where I can find in the United States or Canada hand woven wool materials so that I can make the above garments.

Thanks

Paolo

[caiusbeerquitius]

I don´t know anything about the paludamentum. There are several sagum-finds from the northern bogs. They all are wool, twill, and have woven-on tablet-woven rims. Look much like this, though not necessarily in those colours:




Literature:
all by
Schlabow, Karl:

Wir weben am altgermanischen Gewichtswebstuhl Industrie-Museum, Neumünster, 1936.

Trachten der Eisenzeit aus Moorfunden in Schleswig-Holstein Wegweiser durch die Sammlung / Schleswig-Holsteinisches Museum vorgeschichtlicher Altertümer in Schleswig Heft 5, Neumünster, 1950.

Der Prachtmantel Nr. 2 aus dem Vehnemoor in Oldenburg In: Abhandlungen und Berichte / Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde und Vorgeschichte, Oldenburg; 1953.

Die Kunst des Brettchenwebens Veröffentlichungen des Fördervereins Textilmuseum Neumünster e.V. Heft 1, Neumünster, 1957.

Trachten der Eisenzeit Archäologisches Landesmuseum der Christian-Albrechts-Universität: Wegweiser durch die Sammlung, Heft 5, Neumünster 1961 (2. völlig neu bearbeitete Auflage von Trachten der Eisenzeit aus Moorfunden in Schleswig-Holstein.)


Der Thorsberger Prachtmantel Veröffentlichungen des Fördervereins Textilmuseum Neumünster e.V. Heft 5, Neumünster, 1962.

Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland Göttinger Schriften zur Vor- und Frühgeschichte Bd. 15, Neumünster, 1976.

[caiusbeerquitius]

accidentally a nice one is for sale here today:
[url:23kt9t89]http://www.archaeoforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=1607&sid=e1d786412c7ec2a2bcc4d68ffb7f3930[/url]

[Mithras]

How are the edges on cloaks finished? I usually sew over a seam, but that means there is a 'right' side and a 'wrong' side. Should I be using a blanket stitch?

[Peroni]

Just unpick about two inches of the weave Paul, it leaves a beautiful fringe all the way round. Then there is no inside or outside. You can even tie tassles in it like the picture that Christian posted above.

[Doc]

Christian,

I unfortunatley do not have easy access to that material you posted. I have copied it down and will try to get it. However, it is highly unlikely that I can.

Are there any measurments to the size of a sagum? I need to know the length to determine if it is going to be at the knees or longer.

Any ideas for a paludamentum? Size, shape etc?

Paolo

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Doc,

Buy a British military wool blanket. They are all natural white wool, and a light weave. You can usually find these on Ebay for under 25 dollars shipped. You can easily dye it just about any shade you want afterwards by using Rit dye, or leave it white.


link to Ebay

[caiusbeerquitius]

The saga found are between 2.20 m an 2.80 m wide and between 1.40 m and 2.00 m deep, IIRC. All have tablet-woven rims and are multi-coloured, whereas the colour is usually generated by using differently-coloured weft- or warp-threads. Monochromatic saga seem to exist (apart from the tablet-woven rim, which always seems to be multi-couloured), but to be rare. Expensive task. On the other hand, I fail to understand that people spend hundreds of €/$ for armour, but always think that textiles are not worth the money... :roll:
My advice for any reenactor: Get proper clothing first, before you buy anything else.

[Graham Sumner]

Paolo

You could also try reading my: 'Roman Miltary Clothing' books 1 and 2 published by Osprey available from Amazon.

Sizes of sagum and paludamentum cloaks and colours are all in there.
Graham.

I fail to understand that people spend hundreds of €/$ for armour, but always think that textiles are not worth the money...

Too right and there is an excellent scene from Mel Brook's History of the world part 1 (un-postable probably) which illustrates why Roman military clothing is important!

[Robert Vermaat]

Too right and there is an excellent scene from Mel Brook's History of the world part 1 (un-postable probably) which illustrates why Roman military clothing is important!

Any particular scene in mind?

[Graham Sumner]

Any particular scene in mind?

Yes Robert, when the Empress Nympho selects her guards and the servant say's 'I like your choice, you made some very big decisions!'

Graham.

[Doc]

Mr. Summner,

I have your text on Roman Military Clothing 1 and I have read through the section on the cloaks. You are correct that the measurments and various color evidence is given for the sagum.

Color evidence is also given for the paludamentum. However, there are no measurments for this and it is also my understanding that none have been found.

Thus my question is, even though it is known that the sagum is rectangular in shape and it is assumed that the paludamentum is also rectangular in shape, could one then assume or extrapolate the dimensions for the paludamentum as being the same as for those of a sagum or would more material be required.

Also what would be the opinion for a paludamentum. A very fine light wool or linen or a heavy wool as is the case with many sagums?

I am planning to have a red paludamentum and a green sagum with fringes.

Speaking of fringes for the sagum I know that in the text mentioned above it reads that at least one edge had fringes (usually the lower edge). Would it be "correct" to fringe all the edges?

Also while I am on it. I also read in Mr. Summners book that the paludamentum according to sculpture is more rounded at the bottom edges then is the sagum. I am not quite sure what this is suggesting. Any help would be appreciated.

Does anyone have a photo of the Thorsberg Sagum?

I apologize for the long post but my friend is from Slovak Republic and will be going there in a week or so and he told me that he may be able to get some hand woven material for me so that is why I needed the dimensions, colors, and weight of the wool.

Thanks

Paolo

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Paolo
Details of a reconstruction of a Paludamentum can be found in

'The World of Roman Costume' Edited by J. Sebesta & L. Bonfante Wisconsin 1994.

As both you and they point out none have been properly identified so reconstructions of material and dimensions etc...are based entirely on interpretations of sculpture. Not easy as the cloak is bunched up over the shoulder draped over the left arm and left to hang.

For the lower ranks you need to study images of centurions to get an idea of size while there are plenty of pictures of emperors to look at. Basically if you can get enough material to do what it is doing in the source you are practically there. If it matches near enough the size given in BGU 1564 then you may have cracked it. If it actually hangs and looks like the sculpture even better. Sorry but that is sometimes how things are worked out and no one has a right answer.

It might be that the Paludamentum was simply far superior in quality to the Sagum and that it was not woven in any different way. A later version by comparison for size is illustrated in RMC 2 while sizes for a Roman Sagum are given in RMC 1.

Hopes this helps a bit more.
Graham.

[Doc]

Mr. Summner,

That does help more. Thanks for the guidance.

I will be trying to copy what Sertorius Festus is wearing. I think that with your advice, it will work you nicely.

Thanks

Paolo