Very Late Roman Troops

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

I should certainly say its not getting too OT, I believe as long as we keep it relatively in the period.
I do think that armour was more common than we tend to be led to believe by burials, Obviously I look at alot of burials of the period.
Honestly, my opinion would be that it was twofold, we might not find it in a grave partially because of its low status and also because if the man had a son we might assume that the armour could be passed on.

I wouldnt put it past a mail shirt to be passed down for over 100 years either, its hard to make but relatively easy to repair so one could keep it in working order indefinitely theoretically, barring too much rust of course. Helmets as well I should think could make it over 100 years in the migration era.

Heres the question though: what happens to the second and third son? do the sons split the gear up amongst themselves? do we even have records of what the custom was for either germans or provincial romans in this matter?

Id think it might not be proposterous to imagine a soldier with his father's mail but no helmet, and his brother with the helmet but no mail (or scale, or lamellar, as the case may be)
Have we any evidence for cloth padded armour in the 5th c.? I know we have evidence for some use of rawhide on pieces from Dura Europos for the 3rd c. Im going to say that it was probably rare in the 3rd though.

[Medicus matt]

I read a paper some years ago on 'The Training of Warriors', which gave numerous examples, in a digest of papers on Anglo-Saxon warfare but I do not remember the author's name or the exact title.

Probably 'The Training of Warriors by Hilda Ellis Davidson (who wrote 'The Sword in Anglo Saxon England) which was one of the papers in "Weapons and Warfare in Anglo Saxon England", edited by S C Hawkes, which is rare as rocking horse poo.

Is this getting OT?

Crispvs

Almost certainly. It's definately getting a bit esoteric.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

This is in military history and archaeology, but please do keep it relevant to the 5th c.

I wonder if things had changed much in the army in Gual between Catalaunian fields and soissons (486 AD, what I consider the last battle of the Western Army). Sadly I can only see the situation getting worse in those 35 years......

[Medicus matt]

Have we any evidence for cloth padded armour in the 5th c.?

Well, De Rebus Bellicus is late fourth/early fifth and that discusses the felt thoracomachus. Then there's the 6th C Byzantine text that talks about wearing padding under armour to prevent chaffing...it's not the Strategikon...I think it's in one of the 'Anonymous' texts?

It's almost certainly been discussed here ad nauseum...it's certainly a subject that exercises most late roman and early medieval re-enactors.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

Ok, I wont open up the can of worms.

The illumintations in the Vergilius Vaticanus seem to be an excellent resource.

Does anyone have a thought on whether squamata became more or less common in the late roman era? it would seem much easier to make than mail and I should think (along with lamellar) would be a good alternative.

[Medicus matt]

The illumintations in the Vergilius Vaticanus seem to be an excellent resource.

Take a look at the Virgilius Romanus as well.

Does anyone have a thought on whether squamata became more or less common in the late roman era? it would seem much easier to make than mail and I should think (along with lamellar) would be a good alternative.

Hmmm...the process of assembling the armour itself might be easier, the production of the components isn't. Producing consistant flat sheet to cut your scales from isn't an easy job; is it any easier than producing the iron wire required for mail? Mail making is fiddly and labour intensive but does that neccesarily equate to actual expense in a society where labour can be had quite cheaply, if not for free.

Add to that the fact that mail is much more flexible, more durable, easier to repair and offers better overall coverage than scale or lamellar (getting scale to cover your armpits or provide good upper arm coverage is a bit tricky) and I think you've got the answer as to why mail continues to be used from the time of it's invention through to the modern era.

But then I'm firmly of the opinion that, for the late roman infantryman, scale or lamellar is something that you might wear over the top of mail if you can carry the extra weight, not instead of it.

Robert will be along in a minute to disagree with me.

What turns up more frequently in the archaeological record in the very late roman/early medieval period, scales/lames or bits of mail? I'm guessing mail.

And are those illustrations in the Virigilius manuscripts depictions of huge scales (so big that the armour itself surely can't bend?) or just badly drawn mail?

5th Century. So many intriguing questions, so few concrete answers...don't you love it?

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

What I meant was: was scale becoming more common than it had been during the 1st-4th c.

But I think you answered that as well, I entirely forgot to think about the cost of making a scale.

Another interesting factor is that by the mid 5th c. the economy had crashed horribly and reduced the ability of many or most to purchase any body armour.

When does the comitatensis essentially disappear? were they still around for the campaign against attila in 451?

I understand some of the Limitanei remained even long after the empire fell, procopius tells me so.

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert will be along in a minute to disagree with me.

Sorry it took me a bit longer. :lol:
I don't don't disagree entirely, btw, most of what you say makes perfect sense.

Producing consistant flat sheet to cut your scales from isn't an easy job

Are scales always cut from a flat sheet or also from a bar?

getting scale to cover your armpits or provide good upper arm coverage is a bit tricky) and I think you've got the answer as to why mail continues to be used from the time of it's invention through to the modern era. [..]
But then I'm firmly of the opinion that, for the late roman infantryman, scale or lamellar is something that you might wear over the top of mail if you can carry the extra weight, not instead of it.

Well, yes and no.
of course scale does not cover your armpits, but then neither does a breatplate, a cuirass or a segmentata - yet we see these forms of armour exist (and not over mail) for centuries during the Roman period. that's why they had a subarmalis and pteryges.
If the scales are small, it can be quite flexible, mind you.

Scale is not an alternative for mail, i think it served different purposes. Scale is heavier, indeed, but more sturdy. I think scale was used over mail, true, but for cavalry, whily infantry might have worn it in the front lines - we are told that front line troops had 9better/more) armour than the lines behind then.

And are those illustrations in the Virigilius manuscripts depictions of huge scales (so big that the armour itself surely can't bend?) or just badly drawn mail?

I'd say it's scale:
Vergil MSS Vat. lat. 3867= Romanus, Folio 188, verso: Trojan fighters. Aeneid.

5th Century. So many intriguing questions, so few concrete answers...don't you love it?

Absolutely!!!

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

I am itching to know, were the comitenses units still around in an organized recognizable form during the campaign against attila? I cant find in Iordanes what kind of troops the romans had there precisely (other than their allies, and that they were there)

[Robert Vermaat]

I am itching to know, were the comitenses units still around in an organized recognizable form during the campaign against attila? I cant find in Iordanes what kind of troops the romans had there precisely (other than their allies, and that they were there)

You mean comitatenses. I'm sure the army structure was still recognisable, but as to how many field army units existed, or their strength and general condition, we can but guess. Some scholars see a functional Roman army, others have advocated that Aetius fully relied on personal bucellarii and Germanic forces. The limitani seem to have survived in places (meaning they were still being paid - we see in mid-5th c. Noricum what happens when the pay stops), so I assume that there was still a functional Roman army. Aegidius, a few years later, still had a Roman army in northern Gaul, an army that later fused with the Frankish army.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

my spelling is horrible sometimes :oops:
Im led to believe that Syagrius used his father's army even in 486 at soissons, though I would suppose it was much depleted and ill equipped by that time.

Excellent conversation IMO

Gratias

TFAMB

[Agraes]

Scale armor is however way more depicted than mail on late roman iconography. Of course it is maybe easier to represent for the artist!


Piazza Armerina, circa 300 AD.


From Langres Museum.


Santa Maria Maggiore, early Vth century.

More exemples here:
http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/viewtopi ... a&start=75


The Life of Saint Dalmas mentions a legio britannica near Orleans in 533 AD. Robert will probably say that by that time, the word legio could stand for any army, but nonetheless it is interesting, especially if compared with Procopius account of Roman troops in VIth century Gaul, in the service of the Armoricans, and of the wars between them and Clovis's Franks. Clovis wasn't able to reduce them so he finally made them allies, that's a potential proof of a real military power in western Gaul.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

Indeed Syagrius preserved a Roman army of some sort in western Gaul until his defeat by Clovis in 486. That is, if we can believe the sources fully, though I find no reason to disbelieve the account of a local "Roman" warlord in Gaul.

Are there any concrete primary sources which specifically mention militias and armed town watch units in the very late period of the empire? I have an inkling that these formations may not have been uncommon albeit possibly only armed with some paltry missile weapons or spears.