Thebans and...

[hoplite07]

What other Greek city-states were able to defeat Sparta back around the times between 550-300 BC?
And how were they able to beat them?

-cuz I know it was the Thebans that shattered the Spartan myth that their army was invincible..cant remember quite when it was in their times when I read about it though.

[Zenodoros]

It was the Battle of Leuktra in 371 BC where Epaminondas thrashed the Spartan side using the oblique phalanx. They had also been defeated by Thebes at Haliartos and Tegyra earlier on.

The skirmish at Lechaeum (391BC) at the hands of Athenian Iphikrates was one of their most disastrous defeats, against a force of light infantry.

By this point they were much weaker, though in 331 BC they were defeated by the Macedonians at Megalopolis, which was a very large scale battle where Agis III fought to the death.

Further back, the Argives supposedly defeated them in 546 BC in a 300 versus 300 battle. One Spartan and two Argives survived. The lone Spartan apparently announced that his side was victorious, however.

[hoplite07]

It was the Battle of Leuktra in 371 BC where Epaminondas thrashed the Spartan side using the oblique phalanx. They had also been defeated by Thebes at Haliartos and Tegyra earlier on.

The skirmish at Lechaeum (391BC) at the hands of Athenian Iphikrates was one of their most disastrous defeats, against a force of light infantry.

By this point they were much weaker, though in 331 BC they were defeated by the Macedonians at Megalopolis, which was a very large scale battle where Agis III fought to the death.

Further back, the Argives supposedly defeated them in 546 BC in a 300 versus 300 battle. One Spartan and two Argives survived. The lone Spartan apparently announced that his side was victorious, however.

Yeah, thanks man, I knew about the Argives 300 vs 300 though, just read about it today actually :wink: IMO that was a stalemate though, both sides claimed they had won. But around the 4th century BC, were the Spartans weaker than they were at say battles like..Thermopylae, Plataea or Marathon?

[Zenodoros]

The first big blow to their homoioi military wasn't from a battle, but from an earthquake that occured mid 5th century BC. This was a a burden on their already limited military population. After the Peloponessian Wars there were probably less than 2000 homoioi, and very costly battles like Lechaium, Tegyra and Leuktra made sure that the population wasn't going to rise up anytime soon. Megalopolis was probably the last time in the 4th century where the hoplites really proved their strength, and even that was a loss (they were outnumbered about 2 to 1). So, it wasn't so much the individual Spartans were weaker, just they couldn't provide quite as many.

[Jona Lendering]

During the battle of Stenyklaros (somewhere between 464 and 460), a unit of 300 Spartans was defeated by the Messenians (Hdt. 9.64).

[geala]

Not to forget the battle of Sphakteria in 425 where about 1000 to 1200 Lakedaimonians (420 hoplites plus helots) were beaten by a superiority of Athenian hoplites and light troops. The Spartans were frightened by this and so anxious about the fact that 292 Spartans were captured that they offered to end the war against Athens with a generous peace treaty. This was rejected by the Athenians (perhaps not the wisest decision).

[Jona Lendering]

This was rejected by the Athenians (perhaps not the wisest decision).

I beg to differ: Sparta did not offer any guarantees that it would not break the peace once it had obtained back its men. Cleon reasonably demanded a better offer, and I think the attack on Megara that comes immediately after the rejection of the peace offer can best be seen as a necessary action to achieve the conditions necessary for peace.

Had Megara been taken, Athens could have said something like "OK, we have cut off the road from the Peloponnese to Thebes, and we now have obtained some certainty that a peace treaty will not again be violated. Now let's talk business."

As it happened, Megara was not captured, and Brasidas reached Thrace, giving the war a completely different dimension.

[hoplite14gr]

669 B.C. Hyssiae.
King Pheidon of Argos demonstrated that the tight formation of Argive spearmen armed with round shields and crushing on the enemy could overan even heavily armed javelinthroers aremd with Beotian shileds.

Many belive that this was the starting point of the Spartan military and political reforms.

In Thyrea 300 logadae vs 300 hippeis was one of the bloodiest draws in history byt the next day the Spartans crushed the Argives and Hyssiae were never to be repeated.

Kind regards

[geala]

This was rejected by the Athenians (perhaps not the wisest decision).

I beg to differ: Sparta did not offer any guarantees that it would not break the peace once it had obtained back its men. Cleon reasonably demanded a better offer, and I think the attack on Megara that comes immediately after the rejection of the peace offer can best be seen as a necessary action to achieve the conditions necessary for peace.

Had Megara been taken, Athens could have said something like "OK, we have cut off the road from the Peloponnese to Thebes, and we now have obtained some certainty that a peace treaty will not again be violated. Now let's talk business."

As it happened, Megara was not captured, and Brasidas reached Thrace, giving the war a completely different dimension.

I have never seen it in this connection, maybe you are right. I'm not at all a fan of Sparta and your explanation is favourable for the Athenians. :wink:
But I have some doubts. The Spartans offered a 50 years (?) symmachia and were known not to brake such things so easily. Thukydides says that the Athenians thought they had the Spartans save on the island and demanded too much, esp. areas like Nisaia, Aichaia et al, which were not conquered but given to the Spartans earlier. After the Spartans left Athens the people suddenly became anxious when they realised that the blockade of the island was not nearly as firm as they thought which led to the known urging of Kleon to take command of the attack force.
The attack of Megara was a yearly event. But I don't find the description of the attack of Megara in 425, only in 424. Then the great chance to capture it was only because of the Megarian fugitives attacked the town at the same time. The Athenians could not have known this during Sphakteria.
With the treaty of 421 the Athenians received perhaps less than what might have been possible in 425. Öhm, ot themes are often the most interesting. :oops: