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Before everyone condemns the piece based on depth, be sure to look at these photos:
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/a-2005-helmet%20(8).JPG[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/milit-cavalrymask.jpg[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/milit-mask-N.jpg[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/a-2005-helmet%20(12).JPG[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/mil-a-mask.JPG[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/a-2005-helmet%20(22).JPG[/url]
[url:3h5q1ftc]http://www.romancoins.info/a-2005-helmet.JPG[/url]
Sorry, but the images from romancoins.info don't want to translate into clickable links for some reason. But I'm sure you can highlight, copy and paste.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Yes, but all those include ears- the questionable one stops just before the ears...
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Quite true.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Mind you, why would a forger get it so wrong in the first place? I only noted a striking difference, not wishing to condemn the item out of hand. Provenance again proves vital in solving cases like this one, a solid placing in location and time could make study of contemporary items possible. That way, it might be classed as an intermediate type.
Did the cavalry helmet in the picture have an attachment for a facemask, by the way?
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Quote:Mind you, why would a forger get it so wrong in the first place?
That's something I learned a long time ago isn't reasonable to ask- it gives forgers too much credit :lol: . I'm constantly amazed at the stupid mistakes fakers make on aspects of things that should be extremely simple to get right. Indeed they do get things so wrong...
Having only images of an object with such abnormal features, the lack of any provenance and the forum on which it's offered for sale (i.e., not a respected auction house such as Christies), must be considered quite fatal- until such time as any supporting evidence is found. Pieces like this can only be considered 'guilty until proven innocent'.
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Quote:Robert:2mo5nzu1 Wrote:Mind you, why would a forger get it so wrong in the first place?
That's something I learned a long time ago isn't reasonable to ask- it gives forgers too much credit :lol: . I'm constantly amazed at the stupid mistakes fakers make on aspects of things that should be extremely simple to get right. Indeed they do get things so wrong...
Having only images of an object with such abnormal features, the lack of any provenance and the forum on which it's offered for sale (i.e., not a respected auction house such as Christies), must be considered quite fatal- until such time as any supporting evidence is found. Pieces like this can only be considered 'guilty until proven innocent'.
There's also the corollary...unknown variations because of the accidents of survival. That's why forgers are so perniciously evil. They muck it up so that we can't tell a true variation or anomaly from a fake. It gives all us art historians a knee-jerk response to say "It's a fake!" when it doesn't line up with known examples which is not always a valid thing to do. We did this for years with manuscripts but it's simply impossible to predict since there are so many isolates in the manuscript tradition.
Were there not as many armorers as scribes or as many different styles as there were miniaturists? Somehow I doubt it.
Yet it's impossible to predict things that we simply don't have evidence on. The result of frauds is to undermine confidence in real examples.
The only solution is to kill all known forgers on sight. Shoot all under suspicion as well, just to be safe.
Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)
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Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
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Good grief! What's out there?
Trouble is, good money is being paid for an "ornamental" mask to display. Mask 4 and 5 are really awful.  Perhaps someone, somewhere will wise up and demand solid provenance, this is really putting a crimp on comparative research. Perhaps it's best to exclude masks of dubious provenance from scientific research all together, in case we end up with all kinds of disinformation flouting around.
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I'm with Travis about doing away with the forgers- it does so much damage for the junk to be around it's amazing. It's a crime against civilization really... the rotten things people do for money, eh? And it's being going on for centuries...
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I would object to shooting!! This is NOT in line with the spirit of this forum.
I feel that the stabbing or spearing, bleeding, beheading and displaying the severed head on a post is much more in line with the glorious tradition of Ancient Rome.
If sufficient forgers are found, a comparative analysis on the different kinds of wounds inflicted by spatha's, gladii, pugio and spears could be made, so serving the advancement of science :lol:
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OH I like the head on a spear idea- let's go for that one! :lol: Although testing seems like a good use for them too... hard to choose
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Why choose? We can always impale the head AFTER testing various weapons and documenting the findings. In that way, you still have a whole corpse to dissect to examine slash and stab wounds on limb bones and torso ( oeps, sorry, biologist, got carried away  ).
Seriously though, a ban on objects without any provenance would seem in order. This way, they would no longer cloud the picture and condemn them to the level of "rich men's flashy display trash".
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Looks like some sucker went and paid $3,500 for the item.....
oh well buyer beware I guess!
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity
Roman Artifacts
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